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Author Topic:   What is a Liberal, and What is a Conservative?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1111 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 196 of 254 (139036)
09-02-2004 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 11:33 PM


I think that means control of congress.
the expansion is in months per year with red being "up" monthes and green being "down" months -- it is crude (how much up?) but that is why they peg at 12 on the red dots. perhaps if you subtracted green from red and graphed it you would have a (very) rough trend line for each year.
there is obviously something wrong with the data at the end, showing 12 months of expansion each year under shrub: it ain't so or the "criteria" is very loose and the whole thing suspect.
taking the period from Eisenhower through Clinton I get
1952 +12 (Eisenhower) (+60/8 = 7.5 average months per year)
1953 +12
1954 +00
1955 +04
1956 +12
1957 +12
1958 +02
1959 +06
1960 +12 (Kennedy/Johnson) (+82/8 = 10.25 average months per year)
1961 +12
1962 +10
1963 +12
1964 +12
1965 +12
1967 +12
1968 +12 (Nixon/Ford) (+66/8 = 8.25 average months per year)
1969 +12
1970 +10
1971 -08
1972 +12
1973 +12
1974 +08
1975 -12
1976 +08 (Carter) (+44/4 = 11.0 average months per year)
1977 +12
1978 +12
1979 +12
1980 +00 (Reagan/Bush) (+84/12 = 7.0 average months per year)
1981 +00
1982 -08
1983 +12
1984 +12
1985 +12
1986 +12
1987 +12
1988 +12
1989 +12
1990 +00
1991 +08
1992 +12 (Clinton) (+96/8 = +12 average months per year)
1993 +12
1994 +12
1995 +12
1996 +12
1997 +12
1998 +12
1999 +12
For what it is worth.
k?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 11:33 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-02-2004 12:26 AM RAZD has replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 254 (139040)
09-02-2004 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by RAZD
09-02-2004 12:13 AM


Yea, not super clear. Not that I have a problem with evidence if its accurate, but the graph isn't clear on a few points. BTW, I am not affilitated with either party, and find myself with views that in some regards would be considered far left, some far right, and many inbetween. : )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2004 12:13 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2004 12:35 AM Darwin Storm has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1111 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 198 of 254 (139043)
09-02-2004 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 11:42 PM


workers certainly do not enjoy a democratic work environment. work is possibly the last stronghold of petty kingdoms. the whole hostile takeover, the buy-outs (rape and pillage) seem more of a medeival metaphor than civilized.
BTW, what would you advocate as a potential solution to these problems?
Isn't it obvious?
Democratic control of the house and senate and Kerry as President
I find if curious that some {?is it near a hundred years yet?} since unions first came on the business scene that they are not obsolete. They should be, if you think about it, not because they are "bad for business" but because the things that come from unions should be universal for all americans and not applied only to their petty kingdoms.
universal health care should be one of those no-brainers going back to the basic precepts of the founding fathers, that all are created equal and have the unalienable right to the pursuit of happiness, and to make such changes in the government of the people by the people for the people necessary to do this, "laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
Some things should not be about cost but decency.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 11:42 PM Darwin Storm has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by ThingsChange, posted 09-02-2004 2:16 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1111 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 199 of 254 (139045)
09-02-2004 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Darwin Storm
09-02-2004 12:26 AM


You seemed to me to be sort of libertarian.
I tend to be socially radical, whenever I can get away with it ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-02-2004 12:26 AM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-02-2004 12:40 AM RAZD has not replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 200 of 254 (139049)
09-02-2004 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by RAZD
09-02-2004 12:35 AM


Pretty dead on. Many of my views tend to be very libertarian, though there are some views of mine that wouldn't fall in that category.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2004 12:35 AM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1111 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 201 of 254 (139051)
09-02-2004 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 11:59 PM


I meant going through the bills and making recommendations on them to reduce the fat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 11:59 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-02-2004 1:08 AM RAZD has replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 254 (139064)
09-02-2004 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by RAZD
09-02-2004 12:46 AM


Oh, I am sure there is plenty of fat to be found as well. Pork has long been a staple of the government. However, I consider the issues I listed above to be reason enough to consider our current government spending trends to be atrocious. If the government can't cover its expenses, so much so that we go TRILLIONS of dollars in debt, then there is a problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2004 12:46 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2004 9:26 AM Darwin Storm has not replied

  
ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5632 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 203 of 254 (139069)
09-02-2004 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by RAZD
09-02-2004 12:34 AM


RAZD writes:
universal health care should be one of those no-brainers ...(snip)...
Some things should not be about cost but decency.
If only it were so easy. Universal health care just for US citizens? Why not universal care for everyone in the world? MRI's and CAT scans for everyone. The best medicine and treatment. The best doctors. Where do you draw the line on adequate health care? It's tough to do artificially by government mandate. Responsible cost controls are reality.
Let's look at minimum wage, for example. Noble cause. However, the people and small business (not megacorportations) are the most guilty for hiring illegal immigrants to get lower costs and bypass the minimum wage requirement. That also eliminates work for the unemployed (even though they probably don't WANT to do hard labor!). Now, the illegal immigrants get minor health problems and go to the emergency rooms where (by law) they must be treated. The hospital staffing, supplies, facilities costs go up and the taxpayers must fork over more money. In Houston's case, this is property taxes. So, folks see taxes increase so much (thousands of dollars) that some of them (such as fixed income elderly) can no longer afford to live in their paid-for houses.
I think some sort of "health account" is needed that each of us can decide how to manage our life according to risk decisions that we make (not some government agency). The government can play a role in protecting that money account (from ourselves) from being spent on luxuries.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2004 12:34 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by contracycle, posted 09-02-2004 6:10 AM ThingsChange has not replied
 Message 214 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2004 9:58 AM ThingsChange has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 254 (139083)
09-02-2004 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by ThingsChange
09-01-2004 1:15 PM


quote:
"Enemies"!! C'mon. That is a false assumption. In many cases it is a symbiotic relationship.
I'll concede parasitic.
quote:
In general, balance is sought by the free market as supply of workers meets demands of owners.
In theory. In practice, that is prevented by border controls, passport regimes and immigration quotas. All of which once again put the cards in the hands of the rich, exploiting the poor.
quote:
Globalization is like the ability of an organism to spread from a local population to a wider area.
That is not what the term means, however: what it means is the practice of bandit-capitalism, the low wage economy, lax-to-homicidal safety standards in "free trade zones", weak or no-existant environmental protections and military and political support for unrepresentative regimes which oppress their populations and thus keep wages low.
It is entirely possible to oppose all of those things without claiming a retreat to national borders or denying the possibility of the best companies succeeding. At the moment however those companies succeed on the back of human misery and suffering, they contribute nothing to the wellbeing of humanity, and are indeed inimical to life, liberty and happiness.
"And the cycle of hungry children will keep on going round
'Till we burn the multinationals to the ground."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by ThingsChange, posted 09-01-2004 1:15 PM ThingsChange has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 254 (139084)
09-02-2004 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 10:04 PM


quote:
Ideally though, the US has one of the LOWEST unemployment rates in the world. We complain when our unemplyoment rate hits 6 percent. For example, in 2002, the US had an unemployment rate of 6%. Meanwhile, Franch had an unemployment rate of 9% and Spain had 11%!
True; but that is also because "working poverty" - ie.e nearly Victorian conditions for the labour force - are no longer acceptable in Europe. It is said that European work to live, and Americans live to work. The fact that so many people in the American economy are in such low wage roles is not a model that Europe is remotely interested in following, except for the right-wing conservative elements. Most Europeans have an average months leave, Americans get only two weeks. We think we have a better way of life, and better living conditions, than would be the case if we followed the American model. We had it 100 years ago and it sucked.
quote:
There are still many problems we need to address, but your characterization of employees as helpless victems is both sad and groundless.
No those are just your dogmatic blinders.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 10:04 PM Darwin Storm has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 206 of 254 (139085)
09-02-2004 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 11:42 PM


quote:
First off, I would agree that the cost of living has gone up. Part of this is that earning has gone down, which is an issue. However, family spending has gone up dramatically, which means it takes more money to meet the higher expense standards.
Of course - becuase ALL of capitalisms expenses are passed on to the workers. The workers pay for everything - including Lord Blacks $42,000 Happy Birthday Barbara party. If a firm makes profit, it has succesfully passed all its cost to its customers (99% of wehom are workers), and has furthermore extracted from them even more wealth than the service was worth.
A large part of the stupidity in capitalist argumentation is the failure to deal with consumer and worker incarnated in the same person, but treating them instead as distinct abstract entities.
quote:
The other shift we see in the last 50 years has been the vast increase in the labor market as women have joined men in the workplace. This also has had a impact, if you look at the growth rate of the total labor force.
Thats true. Where the income of a single adult was sufficient, by and large, to support a family 100 years ago, the same requires two adult incomes now. Capitalism thus gets twice the labour ouit of us, but contributes no more to our wellbing. Once again, workers do all the work, pay for everything, but the people who get to enjoy it are parasites living off our labour. What we get is table-scraps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 11:42 PM Darwin Storm has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by paisano, posted 09-02-2004 9:33 AM contracycle has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 254 (139086)
09-02-2004 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by ThingsChange
09-02-2004 2:16 AM


quote:
Why not universal care for everyone in the world?
Yes. In fact IIRC it appears in the UN human rights declaration.
quote:
It's tough to do artificially by government mandate.
Emotively loaded terminology; a state is no more and no less artificial than a corporation. And both are human activities over which we humans have control.
[qupte] Let's look at minimum wage, for example. Noble cause. However, the people and small business (not megacorportations) are the most guilty for hiring illegal immigrants to get lower costs and bypass the minimum wage requirement.[/quote]
So your argument is that where a capitalist firm is so inefficient that it cannot provide a decent standard of living to the people actually doing the work and making the products and delivering the services that the company sells, those capitalists should be protected from thaier failure,a nd the workers should bear those costs. Why should we as workers accept that? If you can't pay a decent rate, out of business you go - is that not how its supposed to work in capitalist competition?
Remember AdamSmith maintained the goal of a capitalist should be to keep their workers fat and content. Modern bandit capitalism is not much like the capitalism that Smith envisioned.
quote:
In Houston's case, this is property taxes. So, folks see taxes increase so much (thousands of dollars) that some of them (such as fixed income elderly) can no longer afford to live in their paid-for houses.
Tax the rich. Tax them 'till the pips squeak. Its all our money anyway; we made it, they stole it.
quote:
The government can play a role in protecting that money account (from ourselves) from being spent on luxuries.
Thus the alleged fiscal liberal introduces the interventionist state to ensure that we are all morally responsible. Note this limitation is considered wholly wrong and immoral when applied to the wealthy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by ThingsChange, posted 09-02-2004 2:16 AM ThingsChange has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1111 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 208 of 254 (139104)
09-02-2004 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Darwin Storm
09-02-2004 1:08 AM


So you would agree that a president that uses debit spending is worse than one that proposes taxes for necessary spending and thus have the spending addressed with the issue?
what do you think of the worst debit spenders of all time: Ronny and Shrub?
How can you fairly ask someone else to pay their bills?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-02-2004 1:08 AM Darwin Storm has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 1875 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 209 of 254 (139107)
09-02-2004 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 10:49 PM


quote:
the Simple fact is that the deficit has increased because of both parties over the last 30 years. Frankly, neither has a lick of financial responsiblity.
...except, during the Clinton years, when there was no deficit, but a sizeable surplus.
How can you ignore that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 10:49 PM Darwin Storm has not replied

  
paisano
Member (Idle past 6128 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 210 of 254 (139108)
09-02-2004 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by contracycle
09-02-2004 6:00 AM


If a firm makes profit, it has succesfully passed all its cost to its customers (99% of wehom are workers), and has furthermore extracted from them even more wealth than the service was worth.
The service was worth what was paid for it by the consumers, otherwise they would have gone with a lower cost competitor, or done without. The profit is the difference between value added and the market cost of the inputs. Profit is what allows a company to invest in expansion of the business.
True, it also allows for abuses, the executives can use the profit to throw lavish parties. But guess what? It's a bad business strategy, and competition and the marketplace tend to eliminate such firms.
Are you suggesting a system in which all firms are operated on a break-even basis and run by workers?
Two words for you. Soviet Union.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by contracycle, posted 09-02-2004 6:00 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by contracycle, posted 09-02-2004 9:52 AM paisano has replied
 Message 212 by Chiroptera, posted 09-02-2004 9:53 AM paisano has not replied
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