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Author Topic:   What is a Liberal, and What is a Conservative?
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 254 (138846)
09-01-2004 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by crashfrog
09-01-2004 2:24 PM


Re: Not sure where the confusion is, here
But we are discussing the test, Political Compass.
By making this "simple example" you have done nothing to persuade me to believe that THIS test (political compass) is not biased, and if it was, then the scores rather being way left, would be in the middle.
I am a contridiction to your view. I do not believe I am a conservitive, but the questions on the test forced me to answer "liberally". I'll make a question that would make someone answer like a conservitive.
A prostitute while doing her job, becomes pregnant, (intentions) she gets an abortion because it would make her lose money in the long run, she is in debt, so she decides she has to keep working, and gets the abortion, she got the abortion when at a stage called "partial birth" making what she did illegal.
Do you think the abortion was justified because of the Prostitute's financial difficulties?
I intentionally made that question make you want to answer NO.
Right?
This is eggactly what the test made me feel, (but the other way around of course) Same stuff.

"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."
Ephesians 5:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by crashfrog, posted 09-01-2004 2:24 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by crashfrog, posted 09-01-2004 11:58 PM joshua221 has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 167 of 254 (138865)
09-01-2004 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Darwin Storm
08-31-2004 7:26 PM


However, they didn't seperate them, they just mentioned companies. That was my issue with the wording. IF you want to ask about certain points, ask about them, but be clear.
Yeah, that's why I corrected your improved statement, just to be more clear what they were really trying to express.
I am still not sure why you decided to attack that with a sermon on economics. I'm just the messenger.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 254 (138867)
09-01-2004 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by crashfrog
09-01-2004 2:24 PM


Re: Not sure where the confusion is, here
quote:
But I have bias. Let's say I'm fairly tall and tired of being considered weird for it. So I use a measuring tape that I cut the first foot off of. That makes my measurement of everyone's height one foot taller than they are - more people who are not really tall are made to appear "tall", according to the "true" average. That throws off my scoring scale.
Perhaps we are talking past each other, hehe. Oh well. For shits and giggles I'll give this one more try and then we can agree to disagree.
Your above analogy is not comparable to what I am trying to portray. Changing you analogy, people with any height at all are called tall and those that can curl their tongue are considered short. In other words, by distorting questions so that both liberals and conservatives would answer the same wouldn't allow the question to differentiate between them, just as regarding everyone above 1 inch as being tall. By moving the scale to such a degree that even conservatives would agree with liberals would put both into a moderate position. Therefore, either liberals or conservatives ranking as moderate does not tell us the bias of the questions involved. And then again, I might just be talking out of my ass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by crashfrog, posted 09-01-2004 2:24 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2257 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 169 of 254 (138916)
09-01-2004 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by ThingsChange
09-01-2004 1:15 PM


quote:
The owner takes a bigger economic risk than a worker.
Eh, not always, and I'm not even sure it's often.

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2257 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 170 of 254 (138919)
09-01-2004 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by RAZD
09-01-2004 1:46 PM


quote:
Try parasites, especially in the sense of the exessively greedy CEO's that take salaries many many times higher than workers (do they really even work twice as hard?)
That's reason number #79 why I really, really love where I work.
I am what you might call a mid-level product specialist that gets a higher-than-average hourly rate for the industry I'm in, but the partners of my business only make about 5-6 times what I make.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 1:46 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 254 (138923)
09-01-2004 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by RAZD
09-01-2004 1:38 PM


This assumes that the option to starve is a valid option.
Or get another job.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 1:38 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 254 (138925)
09-01-2004 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by RAZD
09-01-2004 1:42 PM


Providing access mean providing all the necessary means to get on-line, thuys would necessarily include the computers or other means. False assumption on your part.
No, you didn't state that intially, its not up to me to read your mind. Besides, once you start providing computers, you have drastically increased the cost. Also, then you run into the sticky question of how much of a computer you are going to provide, and by whom. ...... Not a simple proposition at all.
Second: education is not just learning courses in school, it also involves growing your intellect and finding new things to think about. The internet would provide this even without a course structure.
Tell me you have not learned a single thing while being on line.
Enjoy.
The same can be said for television, however we don't provide free cable to everyone to offer them the discovery channel. We also don't provide free tvs. The internet can be a useful source of information, and I have used it as such, but it is a huge assumption to say that everyone else would use it likewise. There are quite a few people that would look at teh computer and internet access and ask why their taxes were wasted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 1:42 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 9:41 PM Darwin Storm has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 173 of 254 (138947)
09-01-2004 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by nator
09-01-2004 7:46 PM


lucky for you.
personally I think anyone who gets a million $ bonus should be shot in the interests of improving the economy.
heh.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 174 of 254 (138953)
09-01-2004 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 8:07 PM


assumes another job is available and is anywhere near equivalent.
you are operating under the impression that staying employed at the level you were at (with salary, benefits, seniority and any other perks) when the economy went south (due to shrub mismanagement and knowledge by wallstreet that he would be bad for business) is at all possible when there are 3/4's the jobs at any level above McJobs as before.
for the employee looking to bail, the options are to find a job at or below his previous level (unless he can show he is underutilized, and might be able to nudge up a notch). for the emploer they can fill a job with sufficient or greater skills. this is not an equal situation.
it is a common fantasy of the conservative world, that just any old job will do, and this false assumption makes their conclusion that the employee has as much "freedom" to change as the employer invalid.
couple that with unemployment and disemployment (those off the official "unemployment" records but still not working) and the employer has many more opportunities to fill a working position than any employee has to change employers.
try Forbidden

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 8:07 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 10:04 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 175 of 254 (138960)
09-01-2004 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 8:11 PM


narrow minded is narrow minded. what I said was you could provide access to everyone in america for less than the tax give-away.
that you take that to only mean a cable to your house is your narrow thinking on the matter. the obvious problem you saw of what to do with the cable means that a system must also be provided to use it. this is thinking through to the logical conclusion. and NO it is not a significant increase in cost, using today costs you can get an addequate computer for $200 compared to cable internet at $60 per month. with bulk order the cost would be way down. and that is assuming a fully functional computer with some opther useful software (wordprocessor, spreadsheet, etc) rather than an access machine.
thank you for admiting that you have used it to learn something or I would say your need to be here had just decreased significantly.
There are MANY people that look at the tax give-back and ask "why was their tax money wasted" -- another false argument.
enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 8:11 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 10:12 PM RAZD has replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 254 (138968)
09-01-2004 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by RAZD
09-01-2004 9:33 PM


Funny, you seem to be the one casting the argument as either or. I suggest you read your own link. You always have the freedom to look for work elsewhere. You are never guarenteed a job. The constitution guarentees many things, but work is not one of them. Ideally though, the US has one of the LOWEST unemployment rates in the world. We complain when our unemplyoment rate hits 6 percent. For example, in 2002, the US had an unemployment rate of 6%. Meanwhile, Franch had an unemployment rate of 9% and Spain had 11%! Of course, there weree countries that had lower unemployment than even the US. Japan had unemployment of 5% and the Netherlands had only 2%!
Even though 2002 was a bad year economically, the unemployment rate was around 6%, which is VERY low. By contrast, 1982 to 1983 had nearly 10 % unemployment in the US!!!! Now, I would be the first to say that the situation is not a dichotomy between roses and crap. There are still many problems we need to address, but your characterization of employees as helpless victems is both sad and groundless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 9:33 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by nator, posted 09-01-2004 10:08 PM Darwin Storm has replied
 Message 185 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 11:05 PM Darwin Storm has replied
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nator
Member (Idle past 2257 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 177 of 254 (138969)
09-01-2004 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 10:04 PM


Do these unemployment rates include the people who are dropped off the count of unemployed people regarldess of if they found work or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 10:04 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 254 (138970)
09-01-2004 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by RAZD
09-01-2004 9:41 PM


See, I frankly think we would have been better off using that money to reduce our debt...... The government already spends too much. That is part of the reason why the national debt is still ballooning ( and this the fault of both parties).
As for my argument that many would not want such a service, or conssider it a waste is NOT a false arguement. I didn't say everyone would feel that way, but I have family members now who don't have computers and don't want one. You can't tell me that this sentiment isn't held by at least some of the population without lying. You are also assuming that internet access is a huge boon, any more than TV access is. Many people enjoy and utilize these outlets, however it is hardly universal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 9:41 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by nator, posted 09-01-2004 10:35 PM Darwin Storm has replied
 Message 189 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 11:43 PM Darwin Storm has replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 254 (138971)
09-01-2004 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by nator
09-01-2004 10:08 PM


Not sure the exact methodology, but here is a link to a list of US unemployment for the last 60 years:
http://www.econstats.com/BLS/blss_m4.htm
I will look to see if I can find a corrarating list published by the US government. (should corraborate)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 254 (138973)
09-01-2004 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by nator
09-01-2004 10:08 PM


Top Picks (Most Requested Statistics) : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
This is a link to the US dept of Labor. You can choose which specialtiy category you wish to look at. The fifth choice, the civilian labor force unemployment rate is the general rate.
This is a much better site, you can alter the years, choose to plot a graph to give you a visual represntation of unemployment spikes.
This message has been edited by Darwin Storm, 09-01-2004 09:20 PM
This message has been edited by Darwin Storm, 09-01-2004 09:23 PM

This message is a reply to:
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