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Author Topic:   What is a Liberal, and What is a Conservative?
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 254 (138701)
09-01-2004 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by crashfrog
09-01-2004 1:07 AM


My point is that currency isn't fixed (it is regulated by the government.) Also, you statement of zero sums seems to imply that the economy really doesnt expand, just that stuff gets pushed around (which is part of it, just not the only part.)

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 Message 134 by crashfrog, posted 09-01-2004 1:07 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 254 (138702)
09-01-2004 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by AdminAsgara
09-01-2004 1:13 AM


probably right there, have wandered a bit off topic.

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 Message 135 by AdminAsgara, posted 09-01-2004 1:13 AM AdminAsgara has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 138 of 254 (138703)
09-01-2004 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by joshua221
08-31-2004 7:10 PM


Re: Less sniping, more discussion please
Correction (and explanation) made by edit at message 108. As RAZD guessed, I had accidently ommited an "at".
Adminnemooseus
ps: I wish you would take such questions to the "Change in Moderation?" topic. It would cut down on the off-topic clutter in this topic.
Adminnemooseus
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 09-01-2004 12:40 AM

Comments on moderation procedures? - Go to
Change in Moderation?
or
Thread Reopen Requests

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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 139 of 254 (138716)
09-01-2004 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Darwin Storm
08-31-2004 12:53 PM


quote:
Well, I both agree and disagree with your stance (actually various points. First off, multinational companies aren't inherentaly a bad trend. The abuses by a few are teh same abuses we have seen when companies were strictly nationalistic entities. So the real complaint should be, do we structure and regulate companies properly with the law, or should their be changes.
I agree. I was not trying to indicate that I am opposed to this newer ownership structure. I think it has some advantages i.e. rather than running a lousy company using tax money to make a national champion like the French due gets superceded by multinationals that are trying to make a profit without using public financing. The toughest part is how to regulate multinationals when they break local (or international) laws.
The second part is a mixed bag. Outsourcing can be beneficial. The outsourcing of high tech jobs to India is not hurting the Indians who get the jobs. But the outsourcing of labor by Nike and textile companies to places like Indonesia or China where the workers are basically slaves should not be tolerated. Even if it makes things more expensive, I think (personal opinion here) that I would rather pay more for shoes etc. than benefit from forced or coerced labor. Again, how this is regulated and how some minimum standard of living can be enforced is one of the main sticking points in the globalization debate.

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 Message 102 by Darwin Storm, posted 08-31-2004 12:53 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 140 of 254 (138749)
09-01-2004 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Darwin Storm
08-31-2004 7:26 PM


quote:
Frankly, if I were a shareholder of Tyco, I would probably drag the manegement of Tyco into court for missappropraiting funds that should have either gone to buisness expansion or to the shareholders.
...or to the workers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Darwin Storm, posted 08-31-2004 7:26 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 141 of 254 (138750)
09-01-2004 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by crashfrog
08-31-2004 9:00 PM


quote:
In many examples, goods become more expensive as a result of corporate control; for instance, the music industry.
Cable TV is another example.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 142 of 254 (138758)
09-01-2004 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by nator
09-01-2004 9:56 AM


internet access?
{added by edit}
free internet acces could have been provided for every american for less money than the tax give-away. this would have boosted both education and commerce.
to get back on topic:
the tax give-away is reactionary conservative
the free internet is radical liberalism
This message has been edited by RAZD, 09-01-2004 09:34 AM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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Replies to this message:
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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 254 (138787)
09-01-2004 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Mammuthus
09-01-2004 4:17 AM


I agree with you. There are of issues that remain unaddressed. One of them is how do we wish to deal with countries that obviously don't provide freedom and protection to its people. Of course, alot of the abuses stems from the government structure and regulation of buisnesss in those countries. ITs a sticky proposition, because how to change those governement peacefully to reduce or eliminate such abuses.

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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 254 (138790)
09-01-2004 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by nator
09-01-2004 9:52 AM


That is another option. However, all employment is volentary on both sides. If the workers at tyco were unhappy with their pay, they have several avenues. One would be to get another job, another would be to unionize.
However, companies are not government enterprizes, thus the control and distrubtion of profits is in the perview of the shareholders and the board of directors. Of course, the same holds true for any buisness enterprise. Single propetierships give that same power to the single owner.
I do think that workers who lost their jobs due to mismanegment may have a case against the manegment for econommic losses in civil court. They need to prove negligence and fraud, but considering the case, that shouldn't be difficult.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 154 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 1:38 PM Darwin Storm has replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 254 (138791)
09-01-2004 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by nator
09-01-2004 9:56 AM


Cable TV has these issues because of a lack of competition. One of the roles of government is to prevent monopolies and to look out for the interests of the consumers. In this regard, I feel that the government has failed. Just look at the difference between Satellite TV and cable prices. I could get twice or more channels for about 1/2 to 1/3 the price, and include a DVR. Of course, with Sattelite TV, there is plenty of competition in each market, which keeps costs down.
This message has been edited by Darwin Storm, 09-01-2004 11:07 AM

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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 254 (138792)
09-01-2004 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by RAZD
09-01-2004 10:29 AM


free internet acces could have been provided for every american for less money than the tax give-away. this would have boosted both education and commerce.
Couple of problems with this. One, internet access means nothing if people don't have computers. Alot of people don't have access because a computer is either out of their means, or just unwanted.
Secondly, you are assuming most people would use the internet for education or commerce.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 1:42 PM Darwin Storm has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 147 of 254 (138798)
09-01-2004 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 12:04 PM


However, all employment is volentary on both sides.
But clearly, it's voluntary to a lesser degree for the workers.
It's a well-understood principle that the worker and the employer are not on equal ground in regards to economic leverage. This forms the basis of our labor laws.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 254 (138802)
09-01-2004 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by crashfrog
09-01-2004 12:16 PM


Its also why workers often form unions to gain negotiationary leverage. Of course, Unions have their own baggage, but they can be very effective in protecting the workers. Also, politically, workers can vote, and labor laws are a direct consequence of such power.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 254 (138808)
09-01-2004 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 12:26 PM


Yes, that is true: but also not the hostility that conservatism demonstrates toward unionisation, and even seeks to restrict unionisation. Fundamemtally, a workers rights agenda is diametrically opposed to the Heroic agenda of the "entrepreneur" advocated by conservatives.
Neverthless, this power does not functionally challenge the ayuthority weilded by employers. Thus for example, some German workers have recently accepted lower pay and conditions in exchange for the firm not leaving for the third world. Our society is still constructed on the many working for the few, and the interests of those few being opposed to the interests of the many.
The rich are necessarily the enemies of the people.

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Replies to this message:
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 254 (138810)
09-01-2004 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Darwin Storm
08-31-2004 11:16 PM


quote:
You even consider the end goal of globalization to be a postivie thing, but see it frought with bumps. I agree, but that path is the best one we have so far.
Without a very specific clarification on what you MEAN by Globalisation, the term is pointless. So, what do you mean?
Anti-globalisation protestors, for example, do not call for a return to local economies. They criticise the neo-"liberal" privatising, slash-and-burn business model that is referred to by the term Globalisation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Darwin Storm, posted 08-31-2004 11:16 PM Darwin Storm has not replied

  
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