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Author Topic:   Hauntings, Exorcisms and the Like
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 91 of 127 (163836)
11-29-2004 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Dynamo321
11-28-2004 5:32 PM


Re: ok. A piece of my mind
quote:
There are hundreds of TT practitioners that are quacks, have no clue and experience few results. While others are like dynamite. The study groups should test those (or only those) that have experienced tangible results in the past. I do not know if they did.
Emily Rosa's JAMA article demonstrated that the TT practitioners she tested did either worse than or no better than chance in detecting if there was a human hand underneath theirs in a blind experiment.
The results caused a lot of upset within the TT community, but do you know what they DIDN'T do?
The results of Rosa's study DIDN'T prompt any of the TT practitioners or advocates to do follow up studies to determine if they were self-deluded or if their abilities were real.
In fact, the TT folks have refused to participate in any real scientific investigations at all.
I agree with you that the people who you say are "dynamite" should be tested.
But they fear testing and refuse to participate.
I wonder why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Dynamo321, posted 11-28-2004 5:32 PM Dynamo321 has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 92 of 127 (163839)
11-29-2004 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Dynamo321
11-28-2004 9:28 PM


Re: Real Experience
quote:
If something works 95% of the time consistently when compared to all other alternatives then there must be some sort of scientific validation because those numbers can't be chance.
Yes, but how are the results recorded? Are the people who say they feel better after some treatment telling you what you want to hear to make you happy? Was there a placebo group? Were the positive results caused by something else, not the particular treatment? Was the placebo effect accounted for?
I remember reading the newsletter the natural food co-op I am a member of publishes, and there was some advice in there to a headache sufferer from some "naturopath, Homeopathic" something or other practitioner.
She advised the purchase of a bunch of herbs, roots, and special homeopathic remedies for these headaches. These substances were to be taken at particular times of the day at particular intervals. All rather intricate. After taking all of these things, the headache sufferer was supposed to lie down on a comfortable couch or bed in a dark room for 30-40 minutes.
What regular headache isn't going to be made better by a half hour of relaxation in a dark room?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Dynamo321, posted 11-28-2004 9:28 PM Dynamo321 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Dynamo321, posted 11-29-2004 10:00 AM nator has not replied

Dynamo321
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 127 (163854)
11-29-2004 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by nator
11-29-2004 7:44 AM


Re: ok. A piece of my mind
Like who? Can you give me a few names?
Well. I was one of them. An old new age friend Monique Levec was also pretty good. I don't let her do any energy work on me any more because I don't like that world too much. I have been out of it for quite some time now. So I am unsure who is still around. Another old friend Greg Goldie was phenomenal! However I think he burned that t-shirt as well. Have not spoken to him for almost 7 years. I would really like to catch up to him so if anyone has bumped into that 6 foot tall teddy bear please let me know.
For example, we would put someone like you in a room with someone else, but that subject would have no idea what your abilities are, and neither would the researcher recording the results.
You try to make them feel hot, or cold, or whatever you say you can do without telling anyone what is "supposed" to be happening, and then the person you are supposed to be making the temperature change in would fill out a carefully worded questionnaire afterwards.
We might put some thermometers on their skin if that's what you say you can do.
See, simple test under controlled conditions, which would be a good place to start to determine if greater investigation is warranted.
Can you demonstrate that?
Yes. In fact I have done those preliminary studies myself. What you mention is more like the clinical trials I have done. For me to do it now I would have to blow out some cob webs and return magnify my energetic giftings back to 100%. As I said I am now about only 10% of where I used to be and I am glad for it. I feel far better ever since it has played a tertiary role in my life. But yes I can do it (or was able to do it) in the past and if I so chose to go down that road again, I should be able to prove those results. I say though. Find a practicing new-ager with these strong giftings and test them. I would rather not go down that dark road ever again. Especially now that I am out of it.
All of this above is jumping the gun. First we have to make sure you can really do what you said you can do, which is that you can make people feel hot or cold just by manipulating some "energy"
yes that is no problem an by the way it is not a perception of temperature change. it is more of a parasthetic reaction (nerve impulse) not unlike when your arm falls asleep and your hand feels tingly. That type of sensation. People often describe it as tingly hot and cold.
When was it documented, and where? What were the experimental controls?
In the years of 1998 and 1996. Sutton Ontario, Kitchener Ontario, Newmarket Ontario. in class clinics and private facilities. like I said they were informal, just for my own mind to affirm itself.
Can you demonstrate that?
Sure I should be able to. At 10% of what I used to be, only 10% of the control group may sense the subtle events that happen, compared to the audience I did when I was more into that movement. Before I would subject myself to tests I would personally be most comfortable if I brought my level back to where it used to be. I struggle with the desire to do so honestly because I knew how much it heart me before. I am still at ends with the experience. Now 7 years later I am beginning to experiment again after completely dropping the ball. I am still un-sure how far I want to go.
I would say find another new-ager out there that can do the same things and test them. I am trying to think of one that was like me but for the life of me I can't remember one. I don't think i was that rare though... hmmmmm... I am sure there is someone out there.
As for the money, I could care less. I need not prove anything to anyone. I many businesses, one of which will be making its first $100 million year this year. So money is not an object or an issue. Why would I subject myself to spiritual trama and be someone's monkey for a meezly 1 million dollars when I will soon be worth tens of millions of dollars without any pain?
Ask me 7 years ago and I would be up to the challenge. Maybe if I cared again I would bring my self back there but at this point I still remember vividly the terrible experiences I had and part of me adamantly refuses to venture anywhere near. Not unlike how people in train recks hate traveling in trains. I am working on it. Still undecided what to do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by nator, posted 11-29-2004 7:44 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by nator, posted 11-29-2004 8:40 PM Dynamo321 has replied
 Message 102 by Buzsaw, posted 11-29-2004 10:12 PM Dynamo321 has not replied

Dynamo321
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 127 (163856)
11-29-2004 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by nator
11-29-2004 8:19 AM


Re: Real Experience
Yes, but how are the results recorded? Are the people who say they feel better after some treatment telling you what you want to hear to make you happy? Was there a placebo group? Were the positive results caused by something else, not the particular treatment? Was the placebo effect accounted for?
Good questions. Remember my tests were just preliminary and for fun. Not to be submitted to an authority in any way.
People were not pressured to tell me they felt anything, most were there to prove the "lack" of my power. Yet a vast percentage of the audience experienced the familiar sensations (without communication with each other). I would have been happy if they told me I was wrong, but they continually proved themselves wrong. Those were fun days.
The positive results could not be accounted for anything else because every thing else worked. My treatment plan was quite effective and predictable. Depending on the case they would experience 30% to as much as 95% of their symptoms diminish while lying on the table. for the next half hour they would experience another 50% relief out of the original percentage (so if they experienced 40% relief up front, that number would then increase to 60%) The headache would be further relived through the day or night (to different amounts depending on the person). After 24 hours the symptoms would subside for a period. Depending on the cause of the headache it would return within 24 hours or 6 months to a year. Why the variation? Well if your headaches were due to allergens, the therapy would fix your headache while you left your environment. If you didn't return, your headaches would not return.
If your headache was due to cancerous growth, the symptoms would be alleviated while things fell in balance however the root would still be there, therefore the headache would return. The same goes for Motor Vehicle accident patients and muscular disorders, people with stress and dehydration. you get the idea.
Patients that received a placebo. me doing nothing or a friend doing a treatment or nothing at all would remain in pain. Depending on the cause of the headache it would alleviate in time (as most headaches do) or I would work on them the following day and offer the relief needed. I am sure I could have explained things better but I am out of time to revise. gotta go now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by nator, posted 11-29-2004 8:19 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by sidelined, posted 11-29-2004 10:58 AM Dynamo321 has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 95 of 127 (163879)
11-29-2004 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Dynamo321
11-29-2004 10:00 AM


Re: Real Experience
Dynamo321
Well before I chew into the rest of your postsI would like to establish something if I may.In your first post of this thread you make this statement to Arachnophilia.
Message 20 of 91 11-24-2004 06:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i'll sign my hubby up for your challenge, Arach.
As for the initial topic in this stream my husband pretty much grew up with a tie to the spiritual world. He played with spirit kids when an young child, had familiar spirits when a teen & witnessed the possession of one of his closest friends in college. He performed the exorcism for that friend. When we met in school (i was a firm atheist at the time) he taught me to see, manipulate & control spirits. After 21 years of being a apart of hauntings, exorcisms and the like, it became aparent to him that the authority of Christ overruled all. We are now christians.
I'll make him aware of your potential future debates. I'm sure he'll enjoy them
However in another post here you answer me thus.
New ager at the time. My wife was even more so when she had such dreams. However these dreams tend to be more prevelant in people who are "baby" christians or are just becoming christians. Some older christians don't know how to fix the problem but that is less common in my experience.
Demonic oppression in dreams was on 10% of my demonic spritual experiences 90% of my experience and often torment occured while I was awake. Just so that you know.
When a personal friend became posessed (when we were deep newagers) there was no promise of great things. The spirit cut strait to the chase, evil, death and other junk like that.
Which side of the sexual spectrum do you belong to?

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Dynamo321, posted 11-29-2004 10:00 AM Dynamo321 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Dynamo321, posted 11-29-2004 11:03 AM sidelined has not replied
 Message 97 by jar, posted 11-29-2004 11:05 AM sidelined has not replied

Dynamo321
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 127 (163881)
11-29-2004 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by sidelined
11-29-2004 10:58 AM


Re: Real Experience
Funny. You make me laugh.
My wife was surfing thorugh the site and saw the post. She used my account to write. She customarily does that to me often. it is kind of funey. She does identify herself as my wife wenever she posts in my name or replies to emails on by behalf, as my executive assistant I am comfortable with her using my ID in this way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by sidelined, posted 11-29-2004 10:58 AM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Buzsaw, posted 11-29-2004 12:07 PM Dynamo321 has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 127 (163882)
11-29-2004 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by sidelined
11-29-2004 10:58 AM


Re: Real Experience
Two people using the same login. Gender neutral postings.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by sidelined, posted 11-29-2004 10:58 AM sidelined has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 127 (163904)
11-29-2004 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Dynamo321
11-29-2004 11:03 AM


Re: Real Experience
Funny. You make me laugh.
My wife was surfing thorugh the site and saw the post. She used my account to write. She customarily does that to me often. it is kind of funey. She does identify herself as my wife wenever she posts in my name or replies to emails on by behalf, as my executive assistant I am comfortable with her using my ID in this way.
As you've likely observed, Dynamo, we're dealing with some real sharp ( ) people here. Being the minority view here, you cover all your bases and you post prayerfully and carefully. Someone among the pack will nail you every time you mess up. Believe me. My relatively long sojourn here has borne that out on more than a few occasions.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Dynamo321, posted 11-29-2004 11:03 AM Dynamo321 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Dynamo321, posted 11-29-2004 12:16 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Dynamo321
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 127 (163909)
11-29-2004 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Buzsaw
11-29-2004 12:07 PM


Re: Real Experience
Thank you for making me laugh once again buzsaw . I appreciate your post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Buzsaw, posted 11-29-2004 12:07 PM Buzsaw has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 100 of 127 (163970)
11-29-2004 4:23 PM


my brother has a class with an elderly guy who had an interesting religous journey.
he started as a new-ager (back when there were such things) and was confronted with a demonic spirit. he then turned to catholicism since that was the easy solution to fight demons. after some years as an exorcist, he confronted demons in his superiors in the church and left it to become a zoroastrian. (nearly identical to christianity but with different names and such). he's apparently really cool.

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 101 of 127 (163992)
11-29-2004 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Dynamo321
11-29-2004 9:46 AM


Re: ok. A piece of my mind
Well, I'm sorry, but it seems that you cannot come up with any documentation that a demonstration of your powers under real scientific controls has been done. Your own casual "tests" were likely rife with bias and sloppy control measures.
If I am wrong, could you please explain the experimental protocol you used?
You claim that there are lots and lots of people who can do what you used to do, yet there is not a single properly controlled study out there that even hints of anyone being able to do what you claim. Not a single New Ager has easily claimed the one million dollar Randi prize, making headlines across the globe and making scientific history.
Isn't that even a little strange to you?
Any your claims of being a multi-millionaire seem rather too convenient an answer as to why you don't want to subject yourself to a real experiment. I know it might be true, but I doubt it. Someone who has several businesses doesn't have time to hang out on an internet debate board, as a rule.
Like I said, you could donate the million dollars to charity. Don't you know of a charity that could use a million dollars?
I am afraid that I am going to have to consider your claims as probably a bunch of hooey and that you are probably self-deluded.
Please don't take it personally. You have been completely cordial and very pleasant to talk to.
I just think you're full of it.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-29-2004 08:41 PM
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-29-2004 08:45 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Dynamo321, posted 11-29-2004 9:46 AM Dynamo321 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Dynamo321, posted 11-30-2004 1:09 AM nator has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 127 (164006)
11-29-2004 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Dynamo321
11-29-2004 9:46 AM


About Those Millions
I many businesses, one of which will be making its first $100 million year this year. So money is not an object or an issue. Why would I subject myself to spiritual trama and be someone's monkey for a meezly 1 million dollars when I will soon be worth tens of millions of dollars without any pain?
You use the pronoun, "my."
1. Is this the Ms or the Mr speaking?
2. Do you do the businesses separately, or together?
3. I would assume that if one of your businesses is to make it's first 100 million this year, that it must've done fairly well on the way up. So it seems you'd be pretty well padded already with a few mil.
4. If the 100 mil is gross, "ten's of mil" net in the pocket sounds pretty astounding.
I'm not trying to meddle or be nosey. I am concerned that you establish your credibility here in town. We have a lotta shifty dudes ride into town from time to time, making lotsa high powered bogus claims, so I hope you understand our need to sniff new dudes a tad before we feel confident as to their sincerity and honesty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Dynamo321, posted 11-29-2004 9:46 AM Dynamo321 has not replied

Dynamo321
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 127 (164040)
11-30-2004 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by nator
11-29-2004 8:40 PM


Re: ok. A piece of my mind
Great posts you two. I take nothing personally schrafinator. I partly wish I was still in that arena to prove to science that there is more than meets the eye. The other part of me is ecstatic that I left that difficult past behind me. If I do bump into a new-ager (which I am not in those circles any more) with the giftings I once took for granted I will make a post. Part of me wishes I knew someone on the top of my head but most everyone I know in some way is a fraud. If I can put it politely.
Yes it does seem a little strange to me that no one has stepped up to the plate. The most I can say is maybe I was a little more unique than I thought. I don't know. I know most strong new-agers stay away from the science world because all they seem to get from it is flack. Therefore I did not know about this prize when I was deep in the movement. Maybe that also plays a role. Next time I speak to old new age friends I will try to educate them. I am sure they can use the buck.
No worries I am not a "multi-millionaire" as of yet. As every businessman knows, new businesses grow on an exponential growth curve. After 5 years of work we are now riding that wave. I am not a millionaire but I am doing fairly well. I could give the million to charity but the personal sacrifice it would take to bring me back to even 90% of where I used to be would be too risky (at this point) in my eye. Why forsake such an important part of my life just to make a measly buck and prove a test. Maybe if my personal view changes toward the topic changes, I will take the scientists up on the offer. Maybe if I start practicing again in the coming years I may do so. It is not my desire to forsake my spirit for the gain of the flesh. Sorry. I sincerely wish I could do more. Sorry.
Yes there are charities that could benefit from 1 mill however I do not intend to go through the pain needed to get it through this route when I can obtain in through safer avenues. Like starting business in the drug world (which I am not by the way) the pay is astounding but the retirement plan is terrible. I dare not risk my health any more for anything. That is my personal stance
As for experimental protocol: I am not a scientist. I come from a clinical background. If someone came to me that was in a Motor Vehicle Accident I would try different things [like physical lymph drainage, soft tissue rehabilitation etc.]. If my work produced positive results, I would do it again, if it proved the same results in 10 patients in a row, I would know there would be certain validity to the technique. This is what enabled me to become a better primary healthcare practitioner. Over of years I refined my approach through experience that is all. I had no desire to recruit test subjects in a formal manner and document with reams of scientific data because there was no need to do so. My only desire was to become the best practitioner I could be. Test data would simply stand in the way of my personal progress as a therapist. In hind site I almost wish I did a test or two but like I said back then I didn’t know where to go and what was available. I say I almost wish. It really matters not in the grand scheme of things. It would have just been a neat experience I guess.
I sincerely hope I have answered all your questions and I do thank you for your conversation
Buzsaw:
If it was the Mrs speaking she would identify herself up front. It is her custom. Thanks for asking.
We have 4 businesses. 3 we run together (as hobbies and play income). The fourth is the monster that is a three way ownership between me and two other partners.
I will not divulge my finances in this forum or any other for that matter, but what I can say is that we are at the beginning of the growth curve. It is quite an exciting time up here. We have a long way to go but we are getting there. In fact we are quite well on our way.
As for the margins. Yes the margins in software are quite good. We will see how things go. Pushing a big software business is a new process to me and took a great deal of thought and planning. Now is where the rubber meets the road. It is quite exciting that after years of planning and development we are riding the big wave. I would rather not talk too much about this subject because I desire to escape work when I am in the forum. I am open to answer your questions no problem but please be sensitive to that.
I work 12 — 15 hour days. Sometimes I feel as though I have enslaved myself with my own work. This is not such a bad thing because I know it is short term. It is forums like this that adds spice and variety to my day and plus I can never be too busy to share and learn. A good diet of brain juice is great for the mind and the body as they say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by nator, posted 11-29-2004 8:40 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by nator, posted 11-30-2004 8:09 AM Dynamo321 has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 104 of 127 (164077)
11-30-2004 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Dynamo321
11-30-2004 1:09 AM


Re: ok. A piece of my mind
quote:
I know most strong new-agers stay away from the science world because all they seem to get from it is flack.
Well, that says a lot right there.
If they could easily do what you are claiming...if there was any detectable positive evidence whatsoever, they should have nothing at all to fear from scientific investigation.
I believe they fear rational scrutiny because:
1) many of them know they are frauds and don't want to risk their lucrative careers.
2) even the self-deluded ones won't risk failure in controlled tests because they want to continue feeling special and magical.
quote:
I had no desire to recruit test subjects in a formal manner and document with reams of scientific data because there was no need to do so.
No need?
You didn't want to test yourself to see if what you were doing was real or if you were fooling yourself and others?
You didn't want to revolutionize medicine?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Dynamo321, posted 11-30-2004 1:09 AM Dynamo321 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Dynamo321, posted 11-30-2004 10:43 AM nator has replied

Dynamo321
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 127 (164104)
11-30-2004 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by nator
11-30-2004 8:09 AM


Re: ok. A piece of my mind
Good post once again. No time to proofreadK..
1) many of them know they are frauds and don't want to risk their lucrative careers.
2) even the self-deluded ones won't risk failure in controlled tests because they want to continue feeling special and magical.
I agree with both your points. Most don't want their beliefs to be shaken. Most scientists don't step foot in churches or mosks or whatever simply because 1) they think it is phoney (like new-agers believe science can't detect what is happening) 2) don't want their experience to be shaken to a movement of the spirit. If a "secular" scientist steps foot in a church he / she will automatically have a "closed heart" and not open to the possibilities because of their belief base. Those are just two observations on the top of my head. People are people and they like to keep things the same. Especially their belief base. That is why it seems so hard for anyone to accept any faith (other than ones they create in their own mind) in my humble opinion. All being said, there are some real healers out there. Let's look at this example:
Western science / medicine stands firm on its belief that cancer can only be cured by some barbaric (in my opinion) therapies with relatively low success rates. Chemo and Radiation Therapy. There is a doctor named Patrick Quillin I believe that treats severe cases of cancer with healthy alternative medicine. His success rate is FAR higher than the other two accepted therapies however western medicine laughs at his results and discounts his findings. I dont know why, it is almost like they dont want their beliefs to be shaken. Closed mindedness is a rampant disease in this world ‘. Feel free to check out their research and findings. As an aside Dr. Helda Clark and many others see cancer as a degenerative disease like scurvy and other diseases that can be treated with nutrition. I recall a story I read about a child that got serve in the current day. The doctors took months to try to figure out the swelling in the gums, prescribed pills of all sorts but completely forgot to ask what the child ate. They were all humiliated to find it was such a simple case of an ancient disease. If western medicine is so blind to see the obvious in so many cases, why would an average new age practitioner volunteer to subject themselves to tests will would shake the scientific world. They know that scientists acts like an old boys club in many ways and most know science is fast to grow in areas that require no belief base and slow to grow in areas closer to faith.
I am just asking these questions arbitrarily. They are not my beliefs. But I can see how new agers hesitate to put themselves in a lab when their even non new age colleagues practicing normal medicine is laughed out of that world. I dont blame them for not stepping out.
No need?
You didn't want to test yourself to see if what you were doing was real or if you were fooling yourself and others?
You didn't want to revolutionize medicine?
Do you need to test everything you now understand to be real in your life? Did you test how water quenches thrust personally on a cellular level? Did you test to see if vitamin C was a good thing for you first hand? Can we afford to test everything in our lives? We all test what we feel needs to be tested and let our experience and knowledge from science, and doctors do the rest. If you are a parent and want to bring up your children well, your normally dont take control groups to decide how to bring them up. You rely on the findings of other doctors and parents and take action on that. If the clinical results are positive many people just do it. I did the same. Many do the same. Why re-prove what has already been proven. We know science will rebuke us anyway so why subject ourselves to that. The naturopaths have a hard enough time convincing health science that real nutrition plays a major role in health. Not pills that alleviate symptoms. Maybe once the most basic of nutritional science is not longer viewed as quackery you may find other fringe therapies beginning to step up to the plate.
In general no one wants to be ridiculed by an old boys club. I know you guys will try to eat me alive for this post and quite frankly these are just my beliefs and findings about the science world. I would rather not debate it because I may be unfounded. But that is how many people in natural medicine feel toward scientists and western science. Our voice is not heard because it does not want to be heard. Valid or not, this is how most feel and maybe that answers your questions as to why a person would not want to be a part of it. That and also what you mentioned.
I knew if I was tested and proven the scientists that submit the results of the test will find some way to debunk the tests and maintain their belief state. It is what science is truly good at. They will find some error in the control group or some way to discount the findings. I am so sorry, I would like to revise this post to make sure I am communicating effectively but I gotta go. Sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by nator, posted 11-30-2004 8:09 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by nator, posted 11-30-2004 2:13 PM Dynamo321 has replied

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