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Author Topic:   Hauntings, Exorcisms and the Like
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 76 of 127 (163658)
11-28-2004 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Dynamo321
11-27-2004 9:57 PM


Re: ok. A piece of my mind
quote:
In my new age days I used to demonstrate the effects of spirit regardless of belief by altering energy in anyone I so chose. I could reverse the flow of energy within your body to feel cold / hot. I could almost knock you out with sheer energic power if I so chose. There are many out there that are presently like the way I was.
Wow, that's amazing.
Who are these people? Why haven't I heard of any of them? Why hasn't science documented their amazing abilities?
Can you do it now? You could win a million dollars from the Randi Foundation if you can demonstrate it under normal scientifically controlled conditions.
quote:
That proves energy but that does not prove spirit. Spirit can not be measured by science nor can it be proven to someone who can not see.
Oh, so you CAN'T demonstrate the effects of spirit regardless of belief.
All of the people have to believe first before they will experience the effects.
Well, then, that's not so impressive.
quote:
Any person can learn to see and understand the spirit however there is not a "dry display" that can be done to show a spirit. Spirits is not a simple duplicatable mass of energy, they are far more complicated than that.
OK, but if I have to be a believer in spirits before I see evidence of spirits, how do you know that people aren't just making things up in their own minds because they want to be part of something?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Dynamo321, posted 11-27-2004 9:57 PM Dynamo321 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Dynamo321, posted 11-28-2004 12:45 PM nator has replied

Dynamo321
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 127 (163680)
11-28-2004 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by nator
11-28-2004 8:53 AM


Re: ok. A piece of my mind
Who are these people? Why haven't I heard of any of them?
Talk to any Cranial Sacral Therapist studied in the Upleager method. Some practitioners are more "powerful" than others if you want to call it that.
In order for science to prove what is experienced, scientists must first be able to analyze the neurological synaptic and chemical transmissions at microscopic levels. They can not yet do this "live" while someone is doing energy work. So how can it then be proven to scientists? I don't know. Science must catch up first. This might also be tested by microscopic changes in vascularity. Science can see veins but can not yet get into the capillary beds. They are too small to my understanding. At least not in a live person. Maybe nano technology may be able to do this in the coming years. However blood flow is secondary to the parasthetic sensations found in the nerve fibers.
As for documenting things, I have found in general if science can not measure an event it will not be documented cause in there eyes there is nothing proven. I hope when nanotechnology evolves this can finally be seen... Until then science can't measure properly unfortunately.
Why hasn't science documented their amazing abilities?
It has been documented in psy documents however most scientists think anything having to do with psy and paranormal are quacks.
Can you do it now?
Yes about 10% what I used to do. I threw away that jersey a long time ago. But how can science prove what they can not measure? We are back to the atom and light microscope problem again. They would have to go off of what a "controlled body" says but then that will simply be shot down by people who want "proof". It is not my desire to prove anything anymore though. It does me no good. Science will prove it when it finally gets to it I am sure.
Oh, so you CAN'T demonstrate the effects of spirit regardless of belief.
OK, but if I have to be a believer in spirits before I see evidence of spirits, how do you know that people aren't just making things up in their own minds because they want to be part of something?
There are people who do experience these things that don't necessarily believe in them. That case is far more rare. They used to call me in a panic not knowing what to do when they experienced it because it felt like their whole world was falling apart. I would go with a few friends and fix the problem. So yes people can experience it. However when you are trained to know what to look for, you will see things far more readily. A bad analogy but it works: It helps to find a needle in a hay stack when you know what the needle is supposed to look like. Your understanding of the needle or belief in the needle does not create the needle's existence. You just find it better and know it when you see it.
I will say that some people do create things out of their mind. Many doctors believe that fibromyalgia is a disorder created in the mind and not in the body. In many cases this is true however in most cases fibromyalgia is a true disorder caused by overtoxicity, myofascial disorders, parasites, fungus and a whole host of other things. Doctors are now understanding this physical issue and now stating that it may no longer be a disorder or belief in the mind. The spirit world is thought about the same way by many. I agree for some it is a chemical imbalance or over active imagination, however there are many cases where it is found outside of a belief base.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by nator, posted 11-28-2004 8:53 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by CK, posted 11-28-2004 1:06 PM Dynamo321 has replied
 Message 79 by jar, posted 11-28-2004 1:13 PM Dynamo321 has not replied
 Message 90 by nator, posted 11-29-2004 7:44 AM Dynamo321 has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 78 of 127 (163682)
11-28-2004 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Dynamo321
11-28-2004 12:45 PM


Re: ok. A piece of my mind
quote:
Talk to any Cranial Sacral Therapist studied in the Upleager method. Some practitioners are more "powerful" than others if you want to call it that.
well forgetting the fact that in english it should be CraniO sacral - it's pure quack nonsense. Would surprise anyone that people who have had this "treatment" and have found that it doesn't work, have been told it's because "their faith wasn't strong enought"?
quote:
In order for science to prove what is experienced, scientists must first be able to analyze the neurological synaptic and chemical transmissions at microscopic levels. They can not yet do this "live" while someone is doing energy work. So how can it then be proven to scientists? I don't know. Science must catch up first. This might also be tested by microscopic changes in vascularity. Science can see veins but can not yet get into the capillary beds. They are too small to my understanding. At least not in a live person. Maybe nano technology may be able to do this in the coming years. However blood flow is secondary to the parasthetic sensations found in the nerve fibers.
As for documenting things, I have found in general if science can not measure an event it will not be documented cause in there eyes there is nothing proven. I hope when nanotechnology evolves this can finally be seen... Until then science can't measure properly unfortunately.
What a lot of old jism. Let's take your powers to make people feel hot or cold - we can test those.
1) subjects sit in a room with a one-way mirror.
2) you are on the other side.
3) You make the subjects feel hot or cold.
4) the student record how they feel on regular intervals (they are unware of the purpose of the experiment or that fact that you are going to make them feel hot or cold).
I'm going to be use my own amazing abilities and predict the results of such an experiment.
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 11-28-2004 01:16 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Dynamo321, posted 11-28-2004 12:45 PM Dynamo321 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Dynamo321, posted 11-28-2004 2:13 PM CK has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 79 of 127 (163683)
11-28-2004 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Dynamo321
11-28-2004 12:45 PM


At a minimum call it the right thing.
Particularly when it is a copyrighted (note: not patented but Copyrighted) proceedure. It's the Upledger method named after the guy that copyrighted the technique.
Were you talking about one of his one week wonders or someone with the full two week course?
Again, so far you have offered no more evidence than I have for the experiences I posted. In fact, I may have shown more support since another memeber here on the board not only had similar experiences but knows of many who shared such hauntings.
By the way, those were not the only incidents. More horrific stories to follow. Stay tuned.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Dynamo321, posted 11-28-2004 12:45 PM Dynamo321 has not replied

Dynamo321
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 127 (163693)
11-28-2004 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by CK
11-28-2004 1:06 PM


Re: ok. A piece of my mind
No time to proof. I am in a hurry.
I was thinking anatomy. The manipulation of the cranial bones. I have been a practising therapist in quite some time. If you think the therapy does not work. Speak to the many people I have healed from headaches on a repeated base regardless of beliefs or background. Your statement seems to be rooted in innocent engorance but that is ok. We all can't experience everything in the world.
There are cases that don't work and there are times that the therapy is valid for healing specific disorders. There is a physiological reason why it works, proven in science and also a spiritual reason why it works, partly proven in science i am told. I don't know where you got your difinitive knowledge but my experience says other wise.
It can't be tested that way. The hot or cold is not a general response, it is localized the the area being worked. Also facia re-alignment is something that can even be heard during a session. That should be the start of showing there is something happening to a scientist. The practitioner must be within a certain distance of the patient. Not unlike therapeutic thouch (deployed in a lot of english hospitals because if its effectiveness I am told).
Asking a therapist to do therapy from another room is like asking a psychologist to heal without speaking or asking questions. If science can measure the microscopic changes in the body they will find that the sensations don't fall in line with alterations of room temperature. If you saw a guru, which I am no longer, you should be able to experience some of these things yourself.
If you suffer from headaches I could have you fixed up in about 30 min no matter what your belief base is. I have had people almost stand beside themselves after a session with me (regardless of faith or beliefs) in fact many did it to humor me thinking it would not work at all. I surprise them every time. I don't care who you are, there are physical laws that will one day show how "cranial" / cranio sacral works (regardless of belief). I have alleviated maybe 100 headaches in my time. I have only found 2 or 3 I couldn't "crack". Their cases were more complicated then most though.
If you look up clinical tests of therapeutic touch in recovery rooms in britan you should find out some interesting results. I have not done this research myself, I just understand it a general practise because I used to be deep in the medical world not too long ago. Talk soon. I like your questions and posts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by CK, posted 11-28-2004 1:06 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by CK, posted 11-28-2004 2:26 PM Dynamo321 has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 81 of 127 (163695)
11-28-2004 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Dynamo321
11-28-2004 2:13 PM


Re: ok. A piece of my mind
quote:
If you look up clinical tests of therapeutic touch in recovery rooms in britan you should find out some interesting results.
Well the last time I checked this stuff out, there was no decent evidence for it.
If you can point me towards a peer-reviewed study, I'd be glad to read it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Dynamo321, posted 11-28-2004 2:13 PM Dynamo321 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Dynamo321, posted 11-28-2004 5:32 PM CK has replied

Dynamo321
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 127 (163722)
11-28-2004 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by CK
11-28-2004 2:26 PM


Re: ok. A piece of my mind
Many people believe therapeutic touch is a form of prayer. I am at ends about the topic. Quite frankly I don't care any more, but you may feel free to ask this doctor for his references and ask him to back up his statements with copies of the studies mentioned in the following link. He is an MD and supposedly a good resource for information. He should be aware of the hospitals that employ this technique successfully and what their results are:
http://www.mercola.com/2000/jun/17/prayer.htm
Another piece of my mind if it interests:
When I was deep in this movement I was one of the few that could tell acute, intermediate and chronic injuries without any knowledge of clinical history or any other testing. Some I was training could do the same while others had no clue. I could also alleviate symptoms by working on them directly and indirectly. Others had the same success while some left the rooms just frustrated. I had my doctors astounded when I was personally doing pushups on my just healing comminuted spiral fracture of the humorous after only 4 weeks. I also had a secular friend leave one of our training sessions absolutely FREAKED that I could tell he injured his shoulder about a year past, and a hip injury when he was a kid. He was afraid of me ever since and rarely spoke to me after that day. Something as simple as that can really blow the mind of someone who does not believe or understand. He came to prove we all were quacks and fortunately / unfortunately found we weren’t. I knew of one ladies ovarian problems 7 years before doctors found out. The rest of her was in good health and I knew that as well. That however is just my personal experience.
There are hundreds of TT practitioners that are quacks, have no clue and experience few results. While others are like dynamite. The study groups should test those (or only those) that have experienced tangible results in the past. I do not know if they did. There are good MDs and bad MDs. There are good TTs and bad TTs. I sincerely hope they tested the talented. In the field I personally found about 10% or less of TT practitioners really knew [understood and successfully implemented] what they were taught and had strong results. That us just my personal experience, I may be wrong but it is what I found.
I say talk to the MD and also look at clinical results. As you look at clinical results look at the success rates of the practitioners before they were tested. Control groups can be misleading if the practitioners suck.
I can mistakenly take a control group of retirement homes and say the life expectancy of the average Canadian is 10 to 20 years. That is if I didn’t know that the control group was not a sampling that reflected a solid accurate and provable base.
Given the low success percentage of TT practitioners I personally know and have worked with, I can guess there would be a lot of studies saying the therapy is a farce. That is also just my thoughts. I may be incorrect. Anyway gotta go again.
Oh ya. If you were going to talk to a CranioSacral practitioner, I would say talk to a c3 level practitioner or even a c4 if you can find one. C4 is not publicly known to be a level because you have to be invited to it to be trained. I don’t know why. Maybe because they want to see a running success before they take you to the next level.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by CK, posted 11-28-2004 2:26 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by CK, posted 11-28-2004 5:41 PM Dynamo321 has replied
 Message 91 by nator, posted 11-29-2004 8:05 AM Dynamo321 has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 83 of 127 (163723)
11-28-2004 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Dynamo321
11-28-2004 5:32 PM


Re: ok. A piece of my mind
quote:
Many people believe therapeutic touch is a form of prayer. I am at ends about the topic. Quite frankly I don't care any more, but you may feel free to ask this doctor for his references and ask him to back up his statements with copies of the studies mentioned in the following link. He is an MD and supposedly a good resource for information. He should be aware of the hospitals that employ this technique successfully and what their results are:
http://www.mercola.com/2000/jun/17/prayer.htm
I'm aware of that study, the methodology and results have been ripped to pieces since 2000 - I remember reading it the last time I looked at this area.
quote:
When I was deep in this movement I was one of the few that could tell acute, intermediate and chronic injuries without any knowledge of clinical history or any other testing. Some I was training could do the same while others had no clue. I could also alleviate symptoms by working on them directly and indirectly. Others had the same success while some left the rooms just frustrated. I had my doctors astounded when I was personally doing pushups on my just healing comminuted spiral fracture of the humorous after only 4 weeks. I also had a secular friend leave one of our training sessions absolutely FREAKED that I could tell he injured his shoulder about a year past, and a hip injury when he was a kid. He was afraid of me ever since and rarely spoke to me after that day. Something as simple as that can really blow the mind of someone who does not believe or understand. He came to prove we all were quacks and fortunately / unfortunately found we weren’t. I knew of one ladies ovarian problems 7 years before doctors found out. The rest of her was in good health and I knew that as well. That however is just my personal experience.
Personal experience - no evidence there. The rest seems to say "Jam tomorrow".
Sorry Dynamo - I remain as unconvinced as I have ever been.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Dynamo321, posted 11-28-2004 5:32 PM Dynamo321 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Dynamo321, posted 11-28-2004 5:46 PM CK has not replied

Dynamo321
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 127 (163725)
11-28-2004 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by CK
11-28-2004 5:41 PM


Re: ok. A piece of my mind
No worries. I am not here to prove or convince anything. I am just sharing. My experience is valid to me and just a real as the air I now breathe. Many have different theories about what I went through, however I believe I am inteligent enough to create my own stand point.
Maybe one day we will see eye to eye but no worries. I don't really care what others may think. I do respect your stand point though.
Thanks for the conversation. - Damian

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by CK, posted 11-28-2004 5:41 PM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by NosyNed, posted 11-28-2004 6:07 PM Dynamo321 has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 85 of 127 (163726)
11-28-2004 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Dynamo321
11-28-2004 5:46 PM


Real Experience
My experience is valid to me and just a real as the air I now breathe.
I'm sure it was. Having had a couple of experiences has given me a tiny bit of insight into alternative kinds of experience.
However, we do know, for sure, that some very "real" experiences are not real at all. The issue is how to separate out thing which may appear to be very real to an individual (or even a bunch of them) from those things which have some other level of reality.
The method we have been using very, very successfully for some centuries is the process of science. At any given time there will be limits on what it can be applied to but where it can be it has proven very powerful indeed.
I didn't read back up thread but one thing to which very simple science has been applied is healing touch. This "reality" has been shown to be false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Dynamo321, posted 11-28-2004 5:46 PM Dynamo321 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Dynamo321, posted 11-28-2004 9:28 PM NosyNed has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 127 (163728)
11-28-2004 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by lfen
11-27-2004 11:27 PM


Re: Mental Illness, Maybe, Maybe Not
He maybe, but "jailhouse conversions" often have ulterior motives. I would expect, or at least hope, that if his conversion was genuine he would come clean on his crimes and any accomplices for the sake of the families of the slain.
Son of Sam has written to relatives of his victims, both apologizing and assuring them that though he is elligible to apply for parole, he will not. He assures them that he does not deserve nor seek parole. Can you document that he has not done all he can to "come clean" with the families? I am not aware that he had accomplices. Are you?
Ted Bundy manipulated a Christian for mutual advantages but his conversion can't have been genuine as he didn't make a clean complete confession of his crimes leaving some families to never know what happened to their loved ones.
He's dead by execution. What advantages did he manipule for and what sort of manipulation did he use after his conversion? I am not aware as to how he didn't come clean. Are you?
Sociopathic personalites show up in the ranks of Bible and faith healing con artists. My understanding of this condition is that it is beyond repair and any conversion is fained for advantages.
I agree that there is a lot of bogus stuff here. That's not to say, though, that there is not genuine stuff happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by lfen, posted 11-27-2004 11:27 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by lfen, posted 11-28-2004 6:57 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 88 by lfen, posted 11-28-2004 7:42 PM Buzsaw has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 87 of 127 (163733)
11-28-2004 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Buzsaw
11-28-2004 6:36 PM


Re: Mental Illness, Maybe, Maybe Not
Buz,
"Aware" is probably not the word I would use as I tend to use it to refer to things I have sensory experience of. It's been at least a decade since I read books on both Bundy and Son of Sam, and I've not the best memory so would have to re research both of them.
One book I read felt that the Son of Sam had been part of a shadowy satanic group and had been intimidated into taking the fall. Now the police investigation brought nothing of that to the trial and it is just as feasible he acted alone but there were questions.
I read a book by two investigators who did a series of interviews with Bundy when he was on death row, I believe that was in Florida. There were a some disappearances that would have fit with Bundy. It was my understanding that Ted claimed he had additional information but with held it hoping that his sentence would be at least postponed if not commuted. As I said it's been a long time but my recall is that Ted went to his death and never divulged all his information. The picture I have of Ted was that he was engaging in sociopathic manipulations to the very end.
So I'm not "aware" but did read some well regarded books that he died leaving some families in the dark about their missing children. My library may still have the book. It's frustrating that between out right theft and simply abuse, or books that are poorly made I can't always return years later and find a book.
I did an online seach of my library and found this book that may have been the one only I thought it was by 2 authors, however it could have been another book that has sinced been removed by theft or damage from circulation.
quote:
Ted Bundy : conversations with a killer
Author: Michaud, Stephen G., 1948-
Publisher, Date: Irving, Tex. : Authorlink Press, 2000.
ISBN: 1928704174 (pbk.) - Description: xii, 298 p. ; 22 cm.
I will agree with you that there are some genuine conversions and others conversions of convenience.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Buzsaw, posted 11-28-2004 6:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 88 of 127 (163741)
11-28-2004 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Buzsaw
11-28-2004 6:36 PM


Re: Mental Illness, Maybe, Maybe Not
Buz,
Here is a link that gives a digest of the Son of Sam case. Seems I had misremembered. Berkowitz himself told of the satanic cult and this article states that investigation has not been closed.
Home - CARPENOCTEM
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Buzsaw, posted 11-28-2004 6:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Dynamo321
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 127 (163744)
11-28-2004 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by NosyNed
11-28-2004 6:07 PM


Re: Real Experience
Yes I agree.
The real I was speaking of was not only real in the "emotional" or "metaphysical" realm but also in the affirmations from many years of medical experience and rehabilitation of many patients.
If I would hazard to say, no matter how I may feel about the subject, my clinical findings would be as comparable to aspirin for many things.
We can prove things chemically and through traditional scientific means yes, we can also prove things clinically through running averages. If something works 95% of the time consistently when compared to all other alternatives then there must be some sort of scientific validation because those numbers can't be chance. That is my thoughts on the matter.
You do have a good point and I agree with you. When I was talking about real I wasn't just talking about intangible beliefs and feelings, I was also talking about my personal clinical results.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by NosyNed, posted 11-28-2004 6:07 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by nator, posted 11-29-2004 8:19 AM Dynamo321 has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 90 of 127 (163832)
11-29-2004 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Dynamo321
11-28-2004 12:45 PM


Re: ok. A piece of my mind
quote:
Talk to any Cranial Sacral Therapist studied in the Upleager method. Some practitioners are more "powerful" than others if you want to call it that.
Like who?
Can you give me a few names?
quote:
In order for science to prove what is experienced, scientists must first be able to analyze the neurological synaptic and chemical transmissions at microscopic levels. They can not yet do this "live" while someone is doing energy work. So how can it then be proven to scientists? I don't know.
Well, no, that "micro" analysis isn't necessary at all. I was interested in a much more basic observation that anything at all was happening.
For example, we would put someone like you in a room with someone else, but that subject would have no idea what your abilities are, and neither would the researcher recording the results.
You try to make them feel hot, or cold, or whatever you say you can do without telling anyone what is "supposed" to be happening, and then the person you are supposed to be making the temperature change in would fill out a carefully worded questionaire afterwards.
We might put some thermometers on their skin if that's what you say you can do.
See, simple test under controlled conditions, which would be a good place to start to determine if greater investigation is warranted.
Can you demonstrate that?
quote:
Science must catch up first. This might also be tested by microscopic changes in vascularity. Science can see veins but can not yet get into the capillary beds. They are too small to my understanding. At least not in a live person. Maybe nano technology may be able to do this in the coming years. However blood flow is secondary to the parasthetic sensations found in the nerve fibers.
As for documenting things, I have found in general if science can not measure an event it will not be documented cause in there eyes there is nothing proven. I hope when nanotechnology evolves this can finally be seen... Until then science can't measure properly unfortunately.
All of this above is jumping the gun. First we have to make sure you can really do what you said you can do, which is that you can make people feel hot or cold just by manipulating some "energy".
quote:
It has been documented in psy documents however most scientists think anything having to do with psy and paranormal are quacks.
When was it documented, and where? What were the experimental controls?
quote:
Yes about 10% what I used to do. I threw away that jersey a long time ago. But how can science prove what they can not measure?
Well, the effects you claim are quite measurable.
Either you can make people hot or cold or you can't. That is easily measurable.
quote:
We are back to the atom and light microscope problem again. They would have to go off of what a "controlled body" says but then that will simply be shot down by people who want "proof". It is not my desire to prove anything anymore though. It does me no good. Science will prove it when it finally gets to it I am sure.
If you say there are real effects that are felt by people, even when those people have no idea what your abilities are and no idea of the effects they are supposed to be feeling, then that is measurable.
Can you demonstrate that?
Remember, you could win a million dollar prize if you can demonstrate it under the normal experimental control conditions I mentioned above. That amount of money would certainly do you or the charity of your choice a great deal of good, wouldn't it?
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-29-2004 07:53 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Dynamo321, posted 11-28-2004 12:45 PM Dynamo321 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Dynamo321, posted 11-29-2004 9:46 AM nator has replied

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