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Author Topic:   OK Conservatives. Got some 'splainin' to do.
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 16 of 35 (398252)
04-29-2007 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Buzsaw
04-28-2007 4:42 PM


Don't forget the liberals who also supported the war.
Oh, you mean all the people who said "well, your case for Saddam's WMD's looks pretty sketchy, but you say that there's no doubt in your mind and that you have "secret" evidence you can't show us, so ok, I guess. Just keep in mind that you're about to piss off a whole lot of people, and that you can't build a democracy at the point of a gun."
Those guys, you mean? Yeah, they sure wound up looking like idiots. Oh, wait.
Mohammed essentially said. "conquer the world for Allah" and that's what Islam is about.
Yeah, but so what? Look, if we can get hundreds of millions of American Christians to all but ignore the foundational document of their religion, along with the bulk of its proscriptions and calls for violence against other religions ("thou shall not suffer a witch to live", anyone?), what on Earth would stop us from doing the same thing to Islam?
As I understand the Biblical prophecies they will become the predominate military force with UN's blessing allied with the old communist block.
You must be reading a ...unique Bible indeed, if it mentions the UN and communism. (Isn't that just your extremely generous retrodictions, as always?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Buzsaw, posted 04-28-2007 4:42 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 17 of 35 (398253)
04-29-2007 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Buzsaw
04-29-2007 11:00 PM


Re: Islam's Modern Warfare
Buz, you have often touted FOX News as being unbiased and a good source of information.
I don't know if you noticed, but several of the people quoted in the OP work for FOX News.
Clearly, their words are anything but unbiased and their facts were so very, very wrong. These few examples above are a drop in the bucket in the ocean of similar comments and quality of information broadcast on that network.
Does this affect your view of FOX News being an unbiased and accurate source of information?

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 35 (398312)
04-30-2007 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Buzsaw
04-28-2007 4:42 PM


Buz is the thing you should really fear.
As I understand the Biblical prophecies they will become the predominate military force with UN's blessing allied with the old communist block. It all leads up to the final Armageddon where the nations are prophesied to be drawn into the region for the final bloody biggy before the 2nd advent of messiah/christ Jesus who will rule the world at the temple mount in Jerusalem for a millenium.
It's fulfillment of prophecy. Read it in Zechariah 14, Ezekiel 38, 39, Joel and elsewhere. End time focus is emerging in the Mid East where Israel has been regathered and reborn as the messianic nation exactly as Jesus, and the prophets foretold with Israel the focus and bone of contention. It's all about who will prevail, the prophet of Allah, Mohammed or the prophet/messiah of Jehovah, Jesus at the temple mount for world domination.
It is the people in the US, Christians, that believe such nonsense that really scare the hell outta me.
Don't forget the liberals who also supported the war. Hindsight leaves both sides of the isle wanting.
Bullshit Buz. When the Administration flat lied to both the people and the Congress, withheld and distorted evidence, the blame lies squarely on their shoulders.
The Bush Administration is a great example of the willful ignorance, dishonesty and self delusion of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Taz, posted 04-30-2007 1:57 PM jar has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 19 of 35 (398372)
04-30-2007 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
04-30-2007 10:11 AM


Re: Buz is the thing you should really fear.
jar writes:
Bullshit Buz. When the Administration flat lied to both the people and the Congress, withheld and distorted evidence, the blame lies squarely on their shoulders.
Ok, I guess I have to step in sometime to point out something.
There are 3 intelligence agencies that contributed to the overall so-called massive intelligence failure. Take out any one of the three and pretty much the other two are not guilty at all.
The intelligence that Saddam tried to buy uranium from nigeria and that the aluminum tubes he acquired were for building nuclear weapons was forged up by an italian who sold the forged documents to the Italian intelligence agency (SISMY). SISMY then gave copies of the documents to the French intelligence, which the French outright rejected as reliable intelligence. SISMY then shared the information to the CIA and the British intelligence. The CIA, being under pressure from the Bush administration to produce something, anything, to point to Saddam's guilt, actually tried to confirm the information.
What did the CIA do to confirm it? They contacted the British intelligence and lo and behold they were pleased to find that the British had also acquired such information. The so-called massive intelligence failure came in when neither the CIA nor the British cited their source of information, which was SISMY. In other words, neither knew that they both got the water from the same poisoned well. Hence, the famous words that made it into the State of the Union address, "Our British ally has recently learned that Saddam had tried to acquire uranium from blah blah blah..."
So, who's fault was it? Was it the Italian? They did send the CIA the information with a disclaimer. Was it the British? They were asked by the CIA about the information and they gave an honest answer that yes they recently got word that Saddam tried to buy uranium from Africa. Was it the CIA? They got intelligence from an ally and confirmed the it with another ally.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 04-30-2007 10:11 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 04-30-2007 2:12 PM Taz has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 35 (398381)
04-30-2007 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Taz
04-30-2007 1:57 PM


Whose fault was it?
The fault was the general one that is so prevalent in the Christian Cult of Ignorance, of not challenging those things that confirm what you want to believe.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 35 (398477)
04-30-2007 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by nator
04-28-2007 7:48 PM


Bush's One Clinton Cabinet Holdover
schraf writes:
Other than Liebermann, I don't know of another liberal ('ol Joe really isn't one, anyway) who made anything even remotely close to the kinds of ridiculously overconfident statements I showed in the OP.
Most liberals were more, "Well, OK, if Colin Powell says Hussein has WMD's, and the Nigerian Yellowcake thing is real, and if the CIA says there really was an Al Qaida link, then we will support this invasion."
ALL of those things turned out to be false, so the liberal support was based upon false assurances given them by the Bush administration.
Bush got his primary faulty intelligence from none other than a liberal Democrat, the one and only cabinet holdover of the Clinton Admin, George Tenet. Bush should have overhauled the decrepid CIA at the onset of his admin given the messups during the Clinton years including the Bin Laden debacle when he should have been nabbed et al. So Your claim that this invasion was a conservative messup is bogus. Tenet is now making millions on his new book trying to shift the lion's share of the blame on everyone but himself when the lion's share lies on his lap and under his watch.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

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Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by DrJones*, posted 04-30-2007 11:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 04-30-2007 11:35 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 24 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-30-2007 11:39 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 25 by jar, posted 04-30-2007 11:43 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 26 by Zhimbo, posted 05-01-2007 3:13 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 22 of 35 (398480)
04-30-2007 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
04-30-2007 11:10 PM


Re: Bush's One Clinton Cabinet Holdover
Bush should have overhauled the decrepid CIA at the onset of his admin
But he didn't, so you agree that it was his mistake that lead to this war.

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 23 of 35 (398481)
04-30-2007 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
04-30-2007 11:10 PM


Re: Bush's One Clinton Cabinet Holdover
That's a nice theory, but Tenet, Perle, and the paper trail make it pretty clear that the Administration played a large part in only requesting intelligence that supported the conclusions they wanted. (But I guess it's not surprising that a creationist wouldn't see any inherent problem in that.)
So Your claim that this invasion was a conservative messup is bogus.
Sorry but your attempt to blame this on Clinton is just ridiculous. Remind me who's been the president for the past 6 years, exactly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 04-30-2007 11:10 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 24 of 35 (398482)
04-30-2007 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
04-30-2007 11:10 PM


We have a prime topic elsewhere for things CIA
While various intelligence agencies, including the CIA, did have there glitches, the essence of it all was that various members of the GW Bush administration were very good at filtering the intelligence data for what they wanted to hear, and discarding the wealth of data that was counter to what they wanted to hear.
Please see the HUBRIS - The Inside Story of Spin, Scandal, and the Selling of the Iraq War topic. It would be a wonderful place to discuss the CIA etc. failings.
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 04-30-2007 11:10 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 35 (398484)
04-30-2007 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
04-30-2007 11:10 PM


Classic denial of the FACTS by Biblical Christians.
Bush got his primary faulty intelligence from none other than a liberal Democrat, the one and only cabinet holdover of the Clinton Admin, George Tenet. Bush should have overhauled the decrepid CIA at the onset of his admin given the messups during the Clinton years including the Bin Laden debacle when he should have been nabbed et al. So Your claim that this invasion was a conservative messup is bogus. Tenet is now making millions on his new book trying to shift the lion's share of the blame on everyone but himself when the lion's share lies on his lap and under his watch.
The FACT is Buz, Clinton did NOT invade Irag. In addition, your attempt to once again palm the pea by injecting Bin Laden has been noted. Bin Laden is totally unrelated to the Iraq Invasion.
Remember it was George Senior who gave Iraq the green light to invade Kuwait the first time around, and then changed horses when he actually trust George Senior and took him at his word.
It was George Junior that Invaded Iraq the second time.
And NEITHER invasion had anything to do with Bin Laden.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 04-30-2007 11:10 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6011 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 26 of 35 (398582)
05-01-2007 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
04-30-2007 11:10 PM


Re: Bush's One Clinton Cabinet Holdover
quote:
a liberal Democrat, the one and only cabinet holdover of the Clinton Admin, George Tenet.
Others have covered why it's ridiculous to place the "lion's share" of the blame on Tenet, but I'm wondering: Why do you say that Tenet was a liberal Democrat?
His first political job was working for John Heinz, a Republican. He was appointed by Clinton to appease Congressional Republicans who blocked Clinton's earlier nominee; Tenet received unanimous congressional approval. Despite recent precedent to replace the Director of Central Intelligence when a new president takes office, the Bush administration chose to keep him on, reportedly on advice from Bush Sr. (Bush later awarded him the Congressional Medal of Freedom).
Based on his history, I'd choose "Moderate Republican" as the most applicable label. Where does "liberal democrat" enter this picture?
Edited by Zhimbo, : No reason given.
Edited by Zhimbo, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 04-30-2007 11:10 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 28 by Buzsaw, posted 05-03-2007 12:19 PM Zhimbo has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 27 of 35 (398594)
05-01-2007 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Zhimbo
05-01-2007 3:13 PM


Re: Bush's One Clinton Cabinet Holdover
Based on his history, I'd choose "Moderate Republican" as the most applicable label. Where does "liberal democrat" enter this picture?
Isn't that what Rush Limbaugh calls Moderate Republicans? When he's not calling them "traitors," at least?

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 35 (398996)
05-03-2007 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Zhimbo
05-01-2007 3:13 PM


Re: Bush's One Clinton Cabinet Holdover
Zhimbo writes:
Based on his history, I'd choose "Moderate Republican" as the most applicable label. Where does "liberal democrat" enter this picture?
Clinton's saw to it that his whole admin and especially his cabinet was of his liberal bent. He fired all the judges and stacked the judiciary with liberals.
Tenet who said he'd upgrade the CIA systematically pretty much dismantling the already weak agency, doing little in the way of any improvements, running it with his kind of people. He didn't even conserve (as in conservative) what little effectiveness it had before he started his overhaul/liberalization of the agency. He failed to connect the dots on the 9/11 and al queda et al.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 05-03-2007 12:34 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 31 by Zhimbo, posted 05-03-2007 4:01 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 35 (398999)
05-03-2007 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Buzsaw
05-03-2007 12:19 PM


Let's see if Buz can support THIS one. LOL
He fired all the judges and stacked the judiciary with liberals.
I suppose you have some evidence that he fired all the judges or is this like your Bible prophecy claims, just spouting nonsense with no supporting evidence?
AbE:
Just to make it easy on you Buz, "Article III of the Constitution states that these judicial officers are appointed for a life term."
So now please explan how Clinton fired all the judges?
Edited by jar, : add reference to Article III.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 32 by Buzsaw, posted 05-03-2007 11:09 PM jar has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 30 of 35 (399011)
05-03-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
05-03-2007 12:34 PM


Understanding Buz
Mr. J. Buz is, I think, a lot like my Mum and Dad. Their connection with reality is a bit tenuous. They make statements that they have heard (or think they have heard) that they think support some idea they have conjured up.
You can then correct them and explain why they have it wrong. They will repeat the statement in short order. They are older but their memories aren't that bad. It doesn't appear to be a memory thing.
They are incapable of being wrong. They will not acknowledge being wrong about anything. They are locked in concrete now and cannot learn.
I think that Buz exhibits exactly the same behavior here.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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