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Author Topic:   A question to those who work in any science field.
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 16 of 29 (125780)
07-19-2004 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Justin Horne
07-18-2004 8:00 PM


too much advice
Hey Justin-
Hopefully I can give you some advice since it sounds like I've been where you are thinking about going.
I did my BS in biochemistry and my PhD in cellular and developmental biology (though my research was in cancer genetics).
A biochemistry degree is excellent if you want to go into a field along the lines of cell bio, molecular bio, or genetics - it will give you a much stronger foundation than a biology degree. (Most grad schools look more favorably on a biochem degree). However, if you are interested in ecology, wildlife studies, or the environment - go with a straight biology degree. A biochem degree is much more rigorous than a biology major at most institutions - more credit hours and much more math and physics. I averaged 20 credit hours a semester to finish my major and core courses in 4 years (the average is 16).
That said, I had no room for electives.
Skip the business courses, unless you want to open a business someday.
Having excellent writing and logic skills is much, much more important to grant success, which is the lifeblood of research. The truth is, if you ever have enough training to place yourself in a position to apply for a grant, you'll have enough common sense (or an adminstrative assistant) to help with the budgetary matters. Also grant writing, science communication, and science budgeting is not something you'll ever learn in an undergraduate business course - really you need to learn by experience and reading lots of other successful grants, and you should have some sort of grant-writing course if you ever go to grad school.
When it comes time to choose a college, pick one that has writing intensive course requirements and a requirement to do at least two semesters of laboratory research to get a science degree (without the latter you won't get a very good science education).
Once you get your degree you could go directly into a lab technician job - though the pay won't be great and you'll be doing other people's experiments for them. I've never heard of someone with just a bachelor's degree writing a research grant proposal, so that is something you wouldn't have to worry about.
Another choice is graduate school. Since graduate schools waive tuition and pay you a stipend, it's really more like a job than school (I only had classes my first year of grad school - it was research under a mentor from then on...) Graduate school stipend have been going up steadily over the past several years, and at some institutions are comparable with the salaries of entry-level tech jobs. So in a way you'd be "working" towards your degree, and NOT sitting in class everyday for five years. You also have more intellectual freedom as a grad student (and eventually PhD) than as a tech - you'll be doing your own research, and depending on your mentor, will be designing your own experiments, (and writing your own grant proposals).
If you even think you might want to go into science, take every math and science class your high school offers - if you cannot handle doing this, you probably don't want to commit your life to science (though if you have a bad class or an obnoxious teacher don't give up your dreams...). It will also be the best preparation for your college experience.
Many universities have summer research programs for high school seniors that place you in a lab with a mentor and usually a small project - find and apply to one of these to see what day-to-day science is really about. (Some labs also offer summer lab positions that make you the equivalent of a minimum wage dishwasher - avoid these unless it's your only lab opportunity).
The most important piece of advice: only go into science if you love it - as others have stated there is little in the way of rewards: little money, long hours, little recognition. I did ten years of school after high school and am currently making about thirty thousand a year.
The biggest pros to me: intellectual freedom and the discovery of new knowledge.
Please let me know if you have any questions about all of these ramblings...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Justin Horne, posted 07-18-2004 8:00 PM Justin Horne has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Justin Horne, posted 07-19-2004 9:09 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
Justin Horne
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 29 (125781)
07-19-2004 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Loudmouth
07-19-2004 6:23 PM


How is it that tuition will be paid just by being accepted?I like that idea.
Yeah, I kinda figured that the part of getting grats would be extremely hard. I like the way you do it and simply let the boss deal with all the money issues. That seems better because then you actually get to focus on the work.
So melecualr biology is a little better huh? Im assuming they are similar, just more specialized. If that's a better area, I wil llook into that one too. Thanfulyl I have got 3 more years of HS, so no decisions for sure yet.
Justin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Loudmouth, posted 07-19-2004 6:23 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Loudmouth, posted 07-20-2004 1:30 PM Justin Horne has not replied
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Justin Horne
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 29 (125789)
07-19-2004 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by pink sasquatch
07-19-2004 7:46 PM


Re: too much advice
Well, I do enjoy science very much, so it works for me. No, i'm less interested in biology, and all the things you listed.
My writing skills are pretty good. Not perfect, but not that bad. I really like the idea of the grad school and the stipend. More experience, pay, albeit small, and just lab skills that will help when looking for a real job.
Thankfully, I'm not looking for glory and fame. Of course, i don't look forward to long hours, but if I enjoy the job, id mind it less. Again, thanks for the help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by pink sasquatch, posted 07-19-2004 7:46 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by sfs, posted 07-19-2004 11:09 PM Justin Horne has not replied
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 07-20-2004 2:53 AM Justin Horne has not replied

  
sfs
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 19 of 29 (125811)
07-19-2004 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Justin Horne
07-19-2004 9:09 PM


Re: too much advice
Lots of good advice. Also keep in mind that you're young and have the opportunity to explore things that interest you along the way -- and that your interests will probably change with time. You have lots of time.
I would not recommend you follow the educational path that I took: master's degree in English, followed by a PhD in physics, leading to my current job as a geneticist of some sort. It was interesting but not efficient.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Justin Horne, posted 07-19-2004 9:09 PM Justin Horne has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by coffee_addict, posted 07-19-2004 11:58 PM sfs has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 20 of 29 (125823)
07-19-2004 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by sfs
07-19-2004 11:09 PM


Re: too much advice
sfs writes:
master's degree in English, followed by a PhD in physics, leading to my current job as a geneticist of some sort. It was interesting but not efficient.
Hahahahaha.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 29 (125867)
07-20-2004 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Justin Horne
07-19-2004 9:09 PM


More experience, pay, albeit small
Heh - like I said, my wife's starting graduate school this fall, with a tutition waiver and a stipend from her research assistantship. Everybody talks about how poor they were in graduate school but factoring in the waiver we'll be making more - on her income alone - than the both of us make now, working full-time.
In other words I'm looking forward to living off my sugar momma. I'm rich, biatch!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Justin Horne, posted 07-19-2004 9:09 PM Justin Horne has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 29 (125934)
07-20-2004 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Justin Horne
07-19-2004 7:54 PM


quote:
How is it that tuition will be paid just by being accepted?I like that idea.
Tuition waivers come from the grants of the professors in the graduate school program. The school still gets paid, but it doesn't come out of your pocket. And as Pinky mentioned, you also get a stipend from the professor that you work under. It really is a win/win situation. I still can't understand why I haven't gone through with it. Stubborn I guess. Either that or I don't want to go through the stress of writing grants. I already help with writing publications, so that is not a problem. It is just the stress of waiting 3-6 months to see if your grant has been accepted or not.
quote:
Yeah, I kinda figured that the part of getting grats would be extremely hard. I like the way you do it and simply let the boss deal with all the money issues. That seems better because then you actually get to focus on the work.
I am luckier than most techs. I actually get to design my own experiments. My boss just gives me an idea of what he wants to find, and I design the methodologies and assays to find it. I have already done enough work for 2 PhD's, so I keep kicking myself for not going into grad school 4 years ago. Oh well.
quote:
So melecualr biology is a little better huh? Im assuming they are similar, just more specialized. If that's a better area, I wil llook into that one too. Thanfulyl I have got 3 more years of HS, so no decisions for sure yet.
If I were to go back to school that is what I would go into. Just remember that it isn't for everyone, and you may find something different that you like better. You might want to talk to a science teacher at school. They would be more than happy to sit down with you and discuss the different fields that you could go into. In fact, some might even allow you to design and run some experiments on the side if you show enough interest. High school budgets can be low, but you may be able to design your own thermocycler and run your own PCR's. That would be a great high school science project in the realm of molecular biology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Justin Horne, posted 07-19-2004 7:54 PM Justin Horne has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by pink sasquatch, posted 07-20-2004 1:58 PM Loudmouth has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 23 of 29 (125945)
07-20-2004 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Justin Horne
07-19-2004 7:54 PM


Hopefully I didn't sound to pessimistic in my first message - a life in science is fantastic, as long as you love science.
Thanfulyl I have got 3 more years of HS, so no decisions for sure yet.
A lot of us (myself included) are getting a bit carried with career advice to a high school sophomore. Like Loudmouth also said, try to explore science as much as possible in high school, especially any hands-on opportunities you can find or make. Take as many science classes as you reasonably can, and look for potential summer research programs at nearby colleges for the summers after your junior and senior years.
In general, keep in mind that it is usually better to have too much rather than too little science background when you do make a decision regarding college, grad school, or a career. In other words, once you've started it is much easier to transition from a biochemistry major to a communications/business/history/etc major than the other way around. (This is isn't to say those other majors are "lesser" than science, just that the nature of the requirements are different.)
Good luck!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Justin Horne, posted 07-19-2004 7:54 PM Justin Horne has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Mammuthus, posted 07-21-2004 4:11 AM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 24 of 29 (125947)
07-20-2004 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Loudmouth
07-20-2004 1:30 PM


I have already done enough work for 2 PhD's, so I keep kicking myself for not going into grad school 4 years ago. Oh well.
Go for it, Loudmouth...
(Though I probably don't need to give you advice since you obviously have a handle on the whole scene.)
Do you work at a university with a grad program? Potential you could do your dissertation work in the same lab you are in now (you seem to like the environment), and apply some of your present work at least as the preliminary data foundation of your dissertion.
We have two tech-turned-grad-students in our lab and they are much happier working towards a degree. One of them was a tech in our lab before becoming a grad student in our lab.
If you hate the grants you could always work as a high level research assistant, or go to a biotech company and make the big bucks.
If for no other reason, perhaps someday people would call you Dr. Loudmouth...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Loudmouth, posted 07-20-2004 1:30 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Loudmouth, posted 07-20-2004 3:55 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 29 (125996)
07-20-2004 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by pink sasquatch
07-20-2004 1:58 PM


quote:
Do you work at a university with a grad program?
Nope, at a Veteran's Administration Medical Center. We do infectious disease research with an emphasis in clinical relevance. My boss, however, is adjunct faculty at both Univ of Wash and Univ of Idaho. The tough part is that the closest grad program in micro or mol bio is about four hours away. I could try and do my grad work here in Boise, in fact there is a grad student in our lab doing just that. It would be a pain in the ass, but might be worth it in the long run. On the other hand, I would like to work in a different research area. Expand my horizons you might say. If I were to do that, I might as well go to a grad school with a strong micro or immuno program such as WashU in St. Louis.
Thanks for the encouragement. My boss has has given me the same encouragement, but alas, here I remain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by pink sasquatch, posted 07-20-2004 1:58 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by pink sasquatch, posted 07-20-2004 4:26 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 26 of 29 (126009)
07-20-2004 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Loudmouth
07-20-2004 3:55 PM


One more note:
Perhaps you already know about interdisciplinary graduate programs - many universities seem to be going in this direction. You basically apply and are accepted by a program that is funded by many departments doing biomedical research. In your first year you do rotations through different labs to get a feel for lab focus and culture.
I would definitely recommend this route if it's available to you - the rotations would allow you to sample different labs and projects in quite diverse areas, and learn a variety of techniques, before deciding what you want to do.
Diversifying your scientific background is definitely a good idea in my opinion.
What ever you decide, good luck.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Loudmouth, posted 07-20-2004 3:55 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 27 of 29 (126165)
07-21-2004 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by pink sasquatch
07-20-2004 1:51 PM


quote:
A lot of us (myself included) are getting a bit carried with career advice to a high school sophomore.
I am not sure I agree with this. When I started grad school, I was constantly told by the various departments that there were simply not enough bio Ph.D.s and that there would be a strong demand for the skills I would obtain through the program. By the time I was half way through I was told (and read in journals like Science and Nature) that there are far too many Ph.D.s and that getting funding, finding a stable job, getting out of postdoc hell would be nearly impossible. It almost seems like every scientist I know is apologetic that it generates for many including myself working conditions you would not tolerate in almost any other profession but is met with "science is great". Of course for a professor, this kind of tunnel vision is extremely important as without the cheap labor of grad students and postdocs they would never get anything done.I think even a sophomore should be made aware that there are tremendous tradeoffs to be made when undertaking a career in science that are usually brushed aside as a trivial problem although only relative few Ph.D.s actually make it anywhere in science. I think that the reward to effort ratio which is disproportionately skewed in favor of effort in science should be general knowledge.
If one thinks they can make it despite the odds and are truly interested then by all means they should go for it. But I know I would have personally benefited from being less wide eyed and believing that hard work and great interest would be a sure path to success....even as a sophomore in high school when there was still a lot of time to really think through what I wanted to do in life and what some of the consequences might be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by pink sasquatch, posted 07-20-2004 1:51 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 28 of 29 (126920)
07-23-2004 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Justin Horne
07-18-2004 8:00 PM


Another approach is to find out what else interests you. For instance if you have excellent grammar and composition skills, you can blend that with almost any degree as a technical writer. If on the other hand you also really like programming, a programmer who can follow the logic of the people they work with is gold. As a lab, would you rather higher a database programmer who can put together the whole project from a meeting or two and your notes, or someone that has to call you four times a day and still delvers late since he had to start over twice.
I’m not trying to talk you out of pursuing science, but suggest ways that keep your future paths open. Even if you seldom or never use any of those secondary skills, having them will help you stand out over other applicants.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Justin Horne, posted 07-18-2004 8:00 PM Justin Horne has not replied

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 29 of 29 (291635)
03-02-2006 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Justin Horne
07-18-2004 8:00 PM


It is fascinating
Justin, I was a Chemistry major and one of the older student at that college became aProfessor at the university and he gave a lecture on the Chemistry of Life. This fascinated me. So, I pursued Biochemistry. The more I studied the more complexity it revealed. It is so marvellous to study the intricate mechanisms in every cell. You will begin to wonder the wisdom of the designer.
I strongly suggest that you pursue your passion. If you want to make money, then do not do it. Because, if you want to pursue your passion, there is no money in this. If you are driven by passion alone, then go for it. However, you can be gainfully employed if you go to Genetic engineeering, pharmacodynamics, molecular pharmacology,and drug development. In these areas, you can make money as well as pursue your passions.
This message has been edited by inkorrekt, 03-02-2006 09:44 PM

This message is a reply to:
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