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Author Topic:   Congress goes off the deep end
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 106 of 126 (354878)
10-06-2006 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by New Cat's Eye
10-06-2006 7:17 AM


CS, your phone numbers, please
So, CS, I checked my e-mail and there is no message from you listing all of your phone numbers.
I thought that you didn't care if I listened in on all of your calls? I can't do that unless I know your numbers, so go ahead and send them to me.
I'm not going to allow anyone to question why I am listening in on all of your calls, nor am I going to be held liable if I or anyone I may have working for me happen to do anything damaging or illegal with any information about you that I learn.
You don't have a problem with that, do you?
OK, so I'll need all of your numbers, now.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminJar, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 107 of 126 (354905)
10-06-2006 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by nator
10-06-2006 6:38 PM


Re: CS, your phone numbers, please
Schraf writes:
OK, so I'll need all of your numbers, now.
E-mail accounts and passwords would be helpful, too.
Edited by AdminJar, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 108 of 126 (354910)
10-06-2006 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by nator
10-06-2006 6:38 PM


I hope the FBI is listening to some that I know
Everyday, in our business, we have frequent overseas calls to foreigners in oil-producing countries. I have no doubt that the FBI listens in to some of these, and quite frankly, I am glad they do, as I will explain.
It's not the deal-makers that I worry about. I get to know them, and they are more interested business. However, my concern is with their cadre of people that travel with them when they visit, and make phone calls here to make arrangements. Plus, some of them have drivers that just look suspicious. They have access to money, shipping, and their countrymen here. In some cases, the ability of getting a warrant would take longer than the frequently-changing people and communication channels. These folks could and probably are all above board, but I would rather be on the safe side.
The key thing in my message is that on paper, the theory sounds good, but if you actually deal with some of these people, your guard goes up.

'Liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 109 of 126 (354939)
10-07-2006 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by New Cat's Eye
10-05-2006 11:42 PM


Re: moving on
I'll let them get away with what they want as long as i'm getting away with what I want. When shit starts affecting me is when I'll get involved.
Wow, "Love thy neighbor as you love yourself" means "let your neighbor get screwed, wrongfully imprisoned, tortured, and abused with no legal recourse or oversight, becasue it doesn't affect you."
That's good to know. Here I thought Christianity was a religion of charity, love, and compassion for your fellow man. I guess all that "what you do to the least of you, you do to me as well" stuff was just irrelevant ramblings, and Jesus didn't mean them.
That entire attitude is selfish, uncaring, and is what led to Hitler's genocide of the Jews, as well as countless other travesties against humanity. It makes me sick.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2006 11:42 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-07-2006 7:00 PM Rahvin has replied

  
BMG
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 357
From: Southwestern U.S.
Joined: 03-16-2006


Message 110 of 126 (354993)
10-07-2006 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by nator
10-06-2006 6:28 PM


So, if you don't care if your gov't tortures people or erodes civil liberties or marches towards Authoritarianism and Fascism, it is the same as you torturing people, you taking away civil liberties, you paving the way of the Authoritarian direction it is taking.
I remember in a philosophy class this same argument was used but with a different example. It analyzed the difference between killing someone and letting someone die.
For instance, in one case, you murder someone by drowning them. In another, you see someone fall into a lake who cannot swim. You know this person cannot swim and is gulping water fast. Instead of helping the victim or calling for someone else to, you watch as the sufferer sinks beneath the water and drowns.
What's the moral difference between the two? Which is morally superior to the other? Good post, Schraf.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by nator, posted 10-06-2006 6:28 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by nator, posted 10-07-2006 5:12 PM BMG has replied
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 111 of 126 (355019)
10-07-2006 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by BMG
10-07-2006 3:00 PM


quote:
I remember in a philosophy class this same argument was used but with a different example. It analyzed the difference between killing someone and letting someone die.
For instance, in one case, you murder someone by drowning them. In another, you see someone fall into a lake who cannot swim. You know this person cannot swim and is gulping water fast. Instead of helping the victim or calling for someone else to, you watch as the sufferer sinks beneath the water and drowns.
What's the moral difference between the two? Which is morally superior to the other? Good post, Schraf.
Thank you!
To me, there is no moral difference between the two scenarios.
I wonder what would happen if Catholic Scientist was a volunteer sunday school teacher at his parish and related his "I've got mine, the hell with everybody else" philosophy to the kids in his class?
I'll bet his pastor would be sitting him down and having a little chat with him, don't you think?

"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by BMG, posted 10-07-2006 3:00 PM BMG has replied

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 126 (355028)
10-07-2006 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by ThingsChange
10-06-2006 8:27 PM


I wish the listeners had MY interests in mind, not that of the ruling class
quote:
Plus, some of them have drivers that just look suspicious.
Yeah, I can relate. I was taking a bus ride in a third world country. You really have to be on guard. On fellow passenger took it on himself to "watch out" for me -- he looked pretty shifty to me.
As it turned out, he did a good job watching my back, and even took time to guide me throught the rough neighborhood in which the bus dropped us i the middle of the night.
I guess you never know. That's why I say better safe than sorry -- better play it safe and NOT assume someone is "shifty" than be sorry that you violated the rights of an innocent person.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
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BMG
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 357
From: Southwestern U.S.
Joined: 03-16-2006


Message 113 of 126 (355035)
10-07-2006 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by nator
10-07-2006 5:12 PM


I'll bet his pastor would be sitting down and having a little chat with him, don't you think?
I would hope so, but who knows?

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 126 (355040)
10-07-2006 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by nator
10-06-2006 6:28 PM


what does this have to do with wiretaps?
So, what ARE you saying if it isn't that?
Correct my misinterpretation.
I just don’t feel like going back through this thread and explaining it, nor do I care what you interpret. You try to make me look like I’m saying something I’m not.
Also, I notice you didn't answer my question:
quote:
Although, I could say that if I was the terrorist who knew where the bomb was, I would want the enemy to torture me to find out where the bomb is so all those people wouldn't die, so technically, I would be doing onto them what I would want done to me
What on earth makes you think that we would restrict the use of torture to known terrorists?
Nothing.
That question doesn’t even make sense as a response to me.
You are responsible for your government in a democracy, no matter if you "feel" you are or not.
I don’t think so. At what point did I become responsible? Birth? The first time I voted?
I haven’t voted for a single person that is in office, how am I responsible for what they do?
Our government is "OF the people".
In theory but not in reality.
So, if you don't care if your government tortures people or erodes civil liberties or marches towards Authoritarianism and Fascism, it is the same as you torturing people, you taking away civil liberties, you paving the way of the Authoritarian direction it is taking.
That’s bullshit. I don’t believe that at all.
Let me add that its not that I don’t care if people are mistreated, its that its inevitable. A lot of bad shit is going to happen to a lot of bad people, that’s just the way things work. I’m not going to actively try to solve all the problems of the world.
I am saying that I think your principles and ethics are greatly lacking.
I can see how it looks that way. In person, I’m a really nice guy. I’m just not involved in politics in any way and I don’t want to be. Last election was the first time I voted, and a lot of good that did I don’t think this government is ”of the people’ anymore, but as far as it concerns me, everything is going fine and will continue to do so. Its never going to be the case where everyone is happy and its not even worth the effort to try. Basically, a lot of people are gonna be fucked and there is nothing I can do about that. I’m sorry if my attitude is shitty on an anonymous internet forum, its not a good representation of who I really am.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by nator, posted 10-06-2006 6:28 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 126 (355041)
10-07-2006 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Rahvin
10-07-2006 12:27 AM


Wow, "Love thy neighbor as you love yourself" means "let your neighbor get screwed, wrongfully imprisoned, tortured, and abused with no legal recourse or oversight, becasue it doesn't affect you."
That's good to know. Here I thought Christianity was a religion of charity, love, and compassion for your fellow man. I guess all that "what you do to the least of you, you do to me as well" stuff was just irrelevant ramblings, and Jesus didn't mean them.
Don't let me speak for christianity. Just because I'm a christian doesn't mean I'm a good one. I mean, I'm jut not doing a very good job of being chritian. How does that redefine all of the christian principles?
That entire attitude is selfish, uncaring, and is what led to Hitler's genocide of the Jews, as well as countless other travesties against humanity. It makes me sick.
Don't get sick over my attitude. I'll admit that I can be a little selfish and uncaring. I'm just a dead fish, going with the flow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Rahvin, posted 10-07-2006 12:27 AM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 126 (355045)
10-07-2006 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by BMG
10-07-2006 3:00 PM


For instance, in one case, you murder someone by drowning them. In another, you see someone fall into a lake who cannot swim. You know this person cannot swim and is gulping water fast. Instead of helping the victim or calling for someone else to, you watch as the sufferer sinks beneath the water and drowns.
Well, you've added a lot of extra qualifiers like knowing they can't swim, not calling for help, and watching them die so I can't really say they are much different.
But, killing someone and letting someone die are not the same thing.
What's the moral difference between the two? Which is morally superior to the other?
Letting someone die is morally superior to killing someone. The difference is that you took no action in their death. Not doing something isn't the same as doing something, even if the result is the same.
ABE: don't reply here, start a new thread, this is way off topic.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : see ABE

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 126 (355046)
10-07-2006 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by nator
10-07-2006 5:12 PM


I wonder what would happen if Catholic Scientist was a volunteer sunday school teacher at his parish and related his "I've got mine, the hell with everybody else" philosophy to the kids in his class?
That's really not my philosophy.
Also, isn't that kinda against rule #10 to be typing about me like that?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 118 of 126 (355109)
10-08-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by New Cat's Eye
10-07-2006 7:00 PM


Don't let me speak for christianity. Just because I'm a christian doesn't mean I'm a good one. I mean, I'm jut not doing a very good job of being chritian. How does that redefine all of the christian principles?
Okay, so you admit that supporting this legislation is contrary to the values taught by the "truth of Jesus" as you put it earlier, those same values you recently decided to embrace.
But wait, you still don't oppose the new laws, even after realizing this! That's not a matter of being a poor Christian, that's just apathy on the level of being plain evil. You do relize that it's this apathy that actually allows tyrants to take control, right? Caused the Holocaust, and all that? "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."
Don't get sick over my attitude. I'll admit that I can be a little selfish and uncaring. I'm just a dead fish, going with the flow.
That's the worst defense of an immoral position I've ever heard. You aren't only apathetic, you know that bad things are happening that you could help stop, and yet you knowingly do nothing. That's no longer simply letting the things out of your control happen, that's active support. You aren't just letting a guy drown because you can't help him, you're holding a life preserver and laughing at him.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 119 of 126 (355147)
10-08-2006 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by New Cat's Eye
10-07-2006 6:56 PM


Re: what does this have to do with wiretaps?
You are responsible for your government in a democracy, no matter if you "feel" you are or not.
quote:
I don’t think so. At what point did I become responsible? Birth? The first time I voted?
Because you live in a democracy. Our democratic government is by the people, for the people, and of the people. That means that the American people have the power and the responsibility to create and maintain their own government.
Didn't you take a civics class in high school?
You can leave, of course, if you wish to live in a Dictatorship, where you don't have any responsibility for what the leaders of the country do.
quote:
I haven’t voted for a single person that is in office, how am I responsible for what they do?
If your voting decisions are governed purely by your own selfish interests, and yet those voting descisions affect others, then what happens to others is in part, your responsibility.
Our government is "OF the people".
quote:
In theory but not in reality.
No, in reality, for the most part.
It is not a perfect system, but, just like in '94, this year we're going to see a popular uprising and we're going to see a lot of incumbents leaving office.
quote:
Let me add that its not that I don’t care if people are mistreated, its that its inevitable. A lot of bad shit is going to happen to a lot of bad people, that’s just the way things work. I’m not going to actively try to solve all the problems of the world.
Who said anything about solving "all the problems of the world"?
Basically, you are saying that if you cannot prevent all suffering and injustice, everywhere, 100%, you have no responsibility or impulse to try to prevent any suffering and injustice, anywhere, at any time.
quote:
Although, I could say that if I was the terrorist who knew where the bomb was, I would want the enemy to torture me to find out where the bomb is so all those people wouldn't die, so technically, I would be doing onto them what I would want done to me
What on earth makes you think that we would restrict the use of torture to known terrorists?
[quote]Nothing.[quote] So you're perfectly OK with torture being used on anybody, not just known terrorists, to get information?
quote:
Its never going to be the case where everyone is happy and its not even worth the effort to try. Basically, a lot of people are gonna be fucked and there is nothing I can do about that.
It isn't a question of totally eliminating the chance people getting fucked. Nobody, anywhere, at any time, has ever suggested that.
The point is that, in a democracy, we can work to reduce the number of people on the receiving end of injustice and suffering. We have done it many times (check out all those nice Ammendments the next time you look at our Constitution). Just throwing your hands up and abdicating your responsibility to promote justice fairness just because we will never achieve perfection is a completely false dilemma.
To illustrate;
We can't prevent rape 100%, so why pass laws against rape at all?

This message is a reply to:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 120 of 126 (355174)
10-08-2006 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by New Cat's Eye
10-07-2006 7:08 PM


That's really not my philosophy.
I don't really want to re-enter debate on this. I get your position and it means we won't get anywhere. But I think I should explain something regarding what others have said about your position.
When you make statements like you're a dead fish going with the flow, and admit to selfishness, then it really isn't surprising for people to view your position as "I've got mine the hell with everyone else".
What's more that impression about you is heightened by the fact that you are arguing against people trying to stop things happening to others. Remember you entered this debate by arguing to me, and then to others, that we shouldn't worry because it isn't going to effect our lives. When anyone said that it was about other people's lives you admitted that could be true, but why should you care because it won't effect you.
Heck, I believe I even told you it has effected some people I know, and mentioned some poor wholly innocent guys who've lost years of their lives under US torture. Yet your come back was that it won't happen to you.
If you had simply said that you doubt it will happen to you, then there probably wouldn't have been a negative impression of your position. But you are actively going out of your way to argue for legislation and against people that are worried about bad things that could happen from the legislation, because you feel it won't effect you, even if it can be shown it can effect others.
That's pretty cold.
Edited by holmes, : clearer
Edited by holmes, : faster.
Edited by holmes, : typo

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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