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Author Topic:   Bush takes one more step toward outright fascism.
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1718 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 106 of 158 (336705)
07-30-2006 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by randman
07-30-2006 5:24 PM


Re: the New World Order?
There is actual videotape, heck millions of Americans saw it, of Gore soliciting cash in the Buddhist Temple, of Clinton and Gore meeting with Chinese agents at the White House coffees, etc, etc,....
I guess I missed it. Can you provide it?
Heck, even the DNC admits they took illegal money, paid a fine for it, and claimed to return millions back. They claim it was a mere mistake, of course, but the facts indicate otherwise.
Your source is an official DNC spokesperson, then? You can provide that statement?
It's clear that someone like you wouldn't admit to a crime committed by Clinton's admin or the dems regardless of how much evidence is there for it
Why? Oh, right. You think I'm some kind of Clinton partisan. I can assure you that I never, ever voted for the man; and that I voted against Gore in 2000, as well.
Sorry, but that's not going to fly. Don't mistake your complete failure to provide compelling evidence with some kind of resistance to evidence on my part. I've given you over 100 posts to provide evidence, and the best you have are allegations repeated by a Wikipedia article and some video that I was supposed to have seen at some time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by randman, posted 07-30-2006 5:24 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by randman, posted 07-30-2006 5:49 PM crashfrog has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5151 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 107 of 158 (336707)
07-30-2006 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by crashfrog
07-30-2006 5:47 PM


Re: the New World Order?
Crash, when you are ready to be honest, get back with me. You have the wika-link, the references, and you google any major news source you want and find every single one of these things, if you are so interested. it's clear to me you are not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by crashfrog, posted 07-30-2006 5:47 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by crashfrog, posted 07-30-2006 5:51 PM randman has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1718 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 108 of 158 (336708)
07-30-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by randman
07-30-2006 5:49 PM


Re: the New World Order?
Crash, when you are ready to be honest, get back with me.
When you're ready to provide evidence, there's a number of threads waiting for you to do just that, to me and many others. But I suppose they're dishonest, too?
How hard it must be for you to be the only honest man. What are the odds that so many of us liars and charlatans would congregate at a website, only to bedevil you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by randman, posted 07-30-2006 5:49 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by randman, posted 07-30-2006 5:54 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 111 by MangyTiger, posted 07-30-2006 7:59 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5151 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 109 of 158 (336710)
07-30-2006 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by crashfrog
07-30-2006 5:51 PM


Re: the New World Order?
Evidence was provided, quite a bit, and you handwave it away.....I suppose La Bella's comments never happened, the criminal prosecutions and convictions never happened, the largest fines in US history for illegal fundraising never happened, etc, etc, etc,....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by crashfrog, posted 07-30-2006 5:51 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by lfen, posted 07-30-2006 7:15 PM randman has not replied
 Message 122 by crashfrog, posted 07-31-2006 12:42 PM randman has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 110 of 158 (336730)
07-30-2006 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by randman
07-30-2006 5:54 PM


Re: the New World Order?
And evidence has been provided tha aliens are abducting our citizens and stealing our ovum. I suppose Roslyn never happened.
I'm thinking I'll use your posts as a study guide in how to assert anything I please by omiting any citations. It's easy to make up anything I want. I don't even have to go to the trouble of googling on anything. Just type a way stream of conscious. Like about Big Foot is the risen Christ and part of a conspiracy involving the Vatican and the green party of Germany. Yep, it's easy to make up stuff as I go. I can even throw in quantum mechanic to prove the big foot exists because otherwise how can you collapse time and the creation borderline? This is true. It's all true. I say so and more importantly you can't refute it, so it must be true!
lfen
Edited by lfen, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by randman, posted 07-30-2006 5:54 PM randman has not replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6605 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 111 of 158 (336736)
07-30-2006 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by crashfrog
07-30-2006 5:51 PM


Gore and the Buddhist temple visit references
Hi crash.
I vaguely remembered that the story about Gore going to a temple where a fundraising event was being held made it over here at the time.
A quick Google throws up references in the mainstream media in CNN, The Washington Post and USA Today.
The Google search I used (democrat fundraising buddhist hacienda) also threw up a number of NY Times stories but you need a subscription to access them.
From a quick peruse it seems to me that there is a basis of truth in what randman is saying but, as is his wont, he is stretching things to make claims beyond what the evidence supports. For example according to the (admitedly old) articles I found there was only one conviction related to Democrat fund-raising, not many as randman had claimed.
Other than his love of playing the shell game I don't see why he couldn't have done this (in more depth) himself.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by crashfrog, posted 07-30-2006 5:51 PM crashfrog has not replied

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 Message 115 by randman, posted 07-30-2006 8:18 PM MangyTiger has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5151 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 112 of 158 (336737)
07-30-2006 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by MangyTiger
07-30-2006 7:59 PM


Re: Gore and the Buddhist temple visit references
I found there was only one conviction related to Democrat fund-raising, not many as randman had claimed.
You need to keep looking then, but I appreciate you acknowledging how even a cursory review shows this stuff happened.
The truth is actually far worse than I am painting here. I have confined myself to public, verifiable details and not more privately obtained information that won't be published because secret service agents can't publicly tell everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by MangyTiger, posted 07-30-2006 7:59 PM MangyTiger has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5151 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 113 of 158 (336738)
07-30-2006 8:09 PM


lying or just not reading the thread?
You guys keep saying I never substantiated my points. That is a lie. My question is are you guys just not aware of the previous posts on the thread and so are making an innocent mistake, or this deliberate deception?
I don't see anything in there about the sale of military secrets.
I suggest you read the entire article and do some research. Here is one part you should pay attention to.
A close business associate of Ron Brown testified in court in 1998 that Brown had told her that Commerce Department trade missions were used for partisan political fund-raising at the behest of President Clinton and the First Lady. Specifically, she said trade mission plane seats were sold to business people who gave at least $50,000 each to the DNC.[27]
A Commerce Department official reportedly threw away official government documents concerning the department's trade missions to China after a judge ordered they be turned over to Judicial Watch, a conservative government watchdog group. According to the court: "No adequate explanation has been given as to why these documents were destroyed."[28]
Some of the trade missions to Asia were attended by Bernard Schwartz, then CEO of Loral Space and Communications (an American maker of satellites). Schwartz donated over $600,000 to the DNC and President Clinton's 1996 reelection effort.[29] Loral was fined $14 million in 2002 for its involvement in illegally transferring missile technology to China in 1996.[30] The transfer of classified secrets occurred in February 1996 during an investigation into the failed launch and explosion of a Long March rocket that was to carry a Loral satellite into space. President Clinton signed the special waivers that allowed China to launch the Loral satellite.[31]
Brown, who had been under investigation for fraud and bribery allegations, died in a plane crash in Croatia in April 1996.[32]
1996 United States campaign finance controversy - Wikipedia
In case you didn't realize it, advanced guidance systems and missile technology is a military secret. Thanks to Bill and his friends, China can now hit any target in the US they want to.
You may want to consider this as well.
In February 1996, Trie brought Wang Jun, chairman of CITIC, the chief investment arm of the government of the People's Republic of China, and Poly Technologies (a "front company for the Chinese military" [17][18] that was later charged with smuggling 2,000 AK-47 automatic rifles into the U.S.), to a White House "coffee" with the president.[19][20] President Clinton later admitted Wang's attendance at the White House was "clearly inappropriate."[21][22]
....
Four days prior to Wang's White House visit, President Clinton granted Wang Jun's company Poly Technologies import permits that would allow the shipment of over 100,000 semi-automatic weapons and millions of rounds of ammunition to a Detroit company (China Jiang An) that had ties to the Chinese military. Robert Sanders, a U.S. lawyer representing the Chinese, could not explain why the special permits were granted. "All of a sudden, there was a breakthrough," Sanders said. "I can't account for it." [24][25]
John Huang (pronounced "Hw[ng]"), was another major figure convicted. Born in 1945 in Nanping, Fujian, Huang and his father fled to Taiwan at the end of the Chinese Civil War before he eventually emigrated to the United States in 1969. A former employee of the Indonesian company Lippo Group's Lippo Bank and its owners Mochtar Riady and his son James (whom Huang first met along with Bill Clinton at a financial seminar in Little Rock, Arkansas in 1980), Huang became a key fund-raiser within the DNC in 1995. While there, he raised $3.4 million for the party. Nearly half had to be returned when questions arose regarding their source during later investigations by Congress.[39]
According to U.S. Secret Service logs, Huang visited the White House 78 times while working as a DNC fund-raiser.[40] James Riady visited the White House 20 times (including 6 personal visits to President Clinton).[41]
Immediately prior to joining the DNC, Huang worked in President Clinton's Commerce Department as deputy assistant secretary for international economic affairs. His position made him responsible for Asia-U.S. trade matters. He was appointed to the position by President Clinton in December 1993. His position at the Commerce Department gave him access to classified intelligence on China. While at the department, it was later learned, Huang met 9 times with Chinese embassy officials in Washington D.C. The reasons for the meetings were never learned.[20]
How much more do you need?
btw, here are the references for the article
Notes and references
^ Miller, Alan C., "Democrats Return Illegal Contribution", Los Angeles Times, Sept. 21, 1996
^ Woodward, Bob and Duffy, Brian, "Chinese Embassy Role In Contributions Probed", Washington Post, Feb. 13, 1997
^ a b c d e Investigation of Illegal or Improper Activities in Connection with 1996 Federal Election Campaigns, Minority Report, Chapter 2, U.S. Senate, Retrieved: April 14, 2006
^ Weeks, Jennifer, "Sino-U.S. Nuclear Cooperation at a Crossroads", Arms Control Association, June/July 1997, Retrieved: April 14, 2006
^ Judis, John B., "China Town", The New Republic, March 10, 1997
^ All currency figures are in United States dollars.
^ Dryfuss, Robert, "The New China Lobby", The American Prospect, Vol. 8, Iss. 30, Jan. 1, 1997 - Feb. 1, 1997
^ Sciolino, Elaine, "Angered Over Taiwan, China Recalls Its Ambassador in U.S.", New York Times, June 17, 1995
^ Nuclear Threat Initiative, Retrieved: April 14, 2006
^ Report of the Select Committee on U.S. National Security and Military/Commercial Concerns with the People's Republic of China, Chapter 2, The "Walk-In", U.S. House of Representatives, Retrieved: April 14, 2006. See Cox Report for more information.
^ Ross, Robert S.,"The 1995-1996 Taiwan Strait Confrontation: Coercion, Credibility, and Use of Force", International Security, 25:2, pp.87-123, Fall 2000, Retrieved: April 14, 2006 (PDF file)
^ Pomfret, John, "China Denies Contribution Charges", Washington Post, May 20, 1998
^ "The Exploits of Charlie Trie", Editorial, Washington Post, Aug. 3, 1997
^ a b 1997 Special Investigation in Connection with 1996 Federal Election Campaigns: Section 3, pp. 11-14, U.S. Senate, Retrieved: April 14, 2006 (PDF file)
^ 1997 Special Investigation in Connection with 1996 Federal Election Campaigns: Section 20, page 13, U.S. Senate, Retrieved: April 14, 2006 (PDF file)
^ "Fund-raiser Charlie Trie pleads guilty under plea agreement", CNN.com, May 21, 1999
^ Nuclear Threat Initiative (NTI), Retrieved: Feb. 10, 2006
^ Russell, Richard L., "China's WMD Foot in the Greater Middle East's Door", The Middle East Review of International Affairs, Vol. 9, No. 3, Article 6, Sep. 2005, Retrieved: June 8, 2006
^ Jackson, Brooks, "Clinton's Re-election Road Paved With Money", CNN.com, Feb. 24, 1997
^ a b "Highlights of U.S. report on alleged China spying", CNN.com, May 25, 1999
^ "Campaign Finance Key Player: Wang Jun", Washington Post, July 27, 1997
^ Duffy, Michael, "How Huang Makes Two Nominations Harder", TIME, Feb. 3, 1997
^ Yost, Pete, "Clinton calls arms dealer's White House visit inappropriate", Associated Press, Dec. 20, 1996
^ Daly, Michael, "This Prez Donor a Real Pistol", New York Daily News, March 26, 1997
^ Hedges, Michael, "Shipment of Chinese Arms Linked to White House Visit", Scripps-Howard News Service, Rocky Mountain News, March 14, 1997
^ Mufson, Steven, "Chinese Denies Seeking White House Visit", Washington Post, March 16, 1997
^ Frieden, Terry, "Ex-Ron Brown Partner Claims Clintons Backed 'Sale' Of Trade Seats", CNN.com, March 23, 1998
^ Memorandum Opinion Judicial Watch vs. Department of Commerce, page 14, U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, Retrieved: April 14, 2006 (PDF file)
^ "Justice May Probe Links Between China Policy, Campaign Cash", CNN.com, May 17, 1998
^ Mintz, John, "2 U.S. space giants accused of aiding China Hughes, Boeing allegedly gave away missile technology illegally", Washington Post, Jan. 1, 2003
^ "Clinton Defends China Satellite Waiver", CNN.com, May 22, 1998
^ Frieden, Terry, "Independent Counsel: No Conclusions On Brown Probe", CNN.com, Nov. 14, 1996
^ a b Jackson, David and Sun, Lena H., "Liu's Deals With Chung: An Intercontinental Puzzle", Washington Post, May 24, 1998
^ Isikoff, Michael, "Cash and Kerry", Newsweek, Feb. 9, 2004
^ Gen. Ji was sentenced to death by PRC President Jiang Zemin in mid-2000 after being implicated in a smuggling scandal in China shortly after Chung testified before the U.S. Congress in 1999. A compromise sentence of 20 years in jail was eventually reached. Source: Wo-Lap Lam, Willy, "How China retreats to attack", CNN.com, May 15, 2001
^ Johnston, David, "Committee Told Of Beijing Cash For Democrats ", New York Times, May 12, 1999
^ "Chinese Aerospace Official Denies Giving To Dems", CNN.com, May 21, 1998
^ a b c "James Riady Pleads Guilty", Department of Justice, press release, Jan. 11, 2001, Retrieved: April 14, 2006
^ a b "Campaign Finance Key Player: John Huang", Washington Post, July 27, 1997
^ "The Democratic Fund-Raising Flap: Timeline", CNN.com, July 1, 1997
^ "The Democratic Fund-Raising Flap: Cast of Characters", CNN.com, July 1, 1997
^ "Former Democratic fund-raiser John Huang pleads guilty", CNN.com, Aug. 12, 1999
^ "Clinton Donor Pleads Guilty", CBSNews.com, March 20, 2001, Retrieved: April 14, 2006
^ Woodward, Bob, "Findings Link Clinton Allies to Chinese Intelligence", Washington Post, Feb. 10, 1998
^ a b Suro, Roberto, "Gore's Ties to Hsia Cast Shadow on 2000 Race", Washington Post, Feb. 23, 1998
^ Eskenazi, Michael, "For both Gore and GOP, a guilty verdict to watch", CNN.com, March 3, 2000
^ a b Abse, Nathan, "A Look at the 94 Who Aren't Talking", Washington Post, June 9, 1998
^ "Gore Admits Temple Fund-Raiser Was A 'Mistake'", CNN.com, Jan. 24, 1997
^ a b "Senate Governmental Affairs Committee's Majority Report Executive Summary", Washington Post, March 8, 1998
^ Huang, John, "Memo for Kim Tilley", April 11, 1996
^ China Connection: Summary of Committee's Findings Relating to Efforts of PRC to Influence U.S. Policies and Elections, page 9, U.S. Senate, Retrieved: April 14, 2006 (PDF file)
^ 1997 Special Investigation in Connection with 1996 Federal Election Campaigns (Minority Report): Volume 4, part 1.7, U.S. Senate, Retrieved: April 14, 2006
^ Woodward, Bob and Duffy, Brian "Senate Panel Is Briefed on China Probe Figure", Washington Post, Sept. 12,1997
^ "Justice To Expand Inquiry To Clinton's Legal Fund", CNN.com, Dec. 19, 1997
^ "Clinton Wants Probe Of Possible Chinese Involvement", CNN.com, Feb. 13, 1997
^ a b c Harris, John F., "White House Unswayed By China Allegations", Washington Post, July 20, 1997
^ Lewis, Neil A., "Freeh Says Reno Clearly Misread Prosecutor Law", New York Times, June 16, 1998
^ Thomas, Pierre, "Reno Aide Recommends Independent Campaign Finance Probe", CNN.com, July 23, 1998
^ Politics and Prosecution Discussion, NewsHour with Jim Lehrer, transcript, PBS, Aug. 4, 1998, Retrieved: April 14, 2006
^ La Bella, Charles,La Bella Memo, Introduction, page 51, July 16, 1998, Retrieved: April 19, 2006
^ La Bella, Charles, La Bella Memo, Introduction, page 14, July 16, 1998, Retrieved: April 19, 2006
^ Fund-raising Investigation Discussion, NewsHour with Jim Lehrer, transcript, PBS, June 23, 2000, Retrieved: April 14, 2006
^ "Reno Defends Independent Counsel Decision", CNN.com, December 4, 1997
^ Baker, Peter, et al., "Clinton Accused of Urging Aide to Lie", Washington Post, Jan. 21, 1998
^ Krauthammer, Charles, "Reno's Humiliation" (Opinion), Washington Post, Oct. 10, 1997
^ Kondracke, Morton, "GOP must launch new probe of Chinagate" (Opinion), Jewish World Review, Aug. 9, 1999
^ "FBI agents criticize Justice Department", Associated Press, Sept. 22, 1999
^ Ernest G. Green Pleads Guilty to Tax Violations, Department of Justice, press release, Dec. 21, 2001, Retrieved: April 14, 2006
^ "Torricelli drops out of N.J. race", CNN.com, Oct. 1, 2002
^ "DNC fined for illegal 1996 fund raising", CNN.com, Sept. 23, 2002
^ a b NewsHour with Jim Lehrer, transcript, PBS, July 8, 1997, Retrieved: April 14, 2006
^ Cost of Congressional Campaign Finance Investigations to the U.S. Taxpayer, Minority Report: page 8, U.S. House of Representatives, Retrieved: April 14, 2006
^ Lacey, Marc, "House Probe of Campaign Fund-Raising Uncovers Little, Piles Up Partisan Ill Will", Los Angeles Times, May 2, 1998
^ Editorial, New York Times, March 20, 1997
^ Editorial, Washington Post, April 12, 1997
Why do you guys keep pretending that this stuff isn't well-documented?
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by crashfrog, posted 07-31-2006 12:55 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5151 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 114 of 158 (336739)
07-30-2006 8:14 PM


how about this comment earlier
Did you guys not see this?
President Clinton's FBI Director Louis Freeh wrote in a 22-page memorandum to then Attorney General Janet Reno in November 1997 that "It is difficult to imagine a more compelling situation for appointing an independent counsel."[57]
In July 1998, the Justice Department's campaign finance task force head, Charles La Bella, sent a report to Janet Reno also recommending she seek an independent counsel to investigate alleged fund-raising abuses by Democratic party officials.[58] The media reported that LaBella believed there was clearly an appearance of a conflict of interest by Reno.[59] In his report to Reno he wrote: " [A] pattern [of events] suggests a level of knowledge within the White House”including the President's and First Lady's offices”concerning the injection of foreign funds into the reelection effort."[60] Additionally, La Bella stated: "If these allegations involved anyone other than the president, vice president, senior White House or DNC and Clinton-Gore '96 officials, an appropriate investigation would have commenced months ago without hesitation."[61]
Robert Conrad, Jr., who later became head of the task force, called on Reno in Spring 2000 to appoint an independent counsel to look into the fund-raising practices of Vice President Gore.[62]
Janet Reno rejected all of these requests:
I try to do one thing: what's right. I am trying to follow the independent counsel statute as it has been framed by Congress. If you had a lower threshold, then any time somebody said 'boo' about a covered person, you'd trigger the independent counsel statute ” Janet Reno, December 4, 1997.[63]
Six weeks after this statement, Attorney General Reno agreed to Whitewater independent counsel Kenneth Starr's request to look into allegations that President Clinton had committed perjury and obstruction of justice relating to the sexual harassment lawsuit brought against him by Paula Jones (a former Arkansas state employee during Clinton's governorship there).[64]
Critics such as columnists Charles Krauthammer and Morton Kondracke, as well as a number of FBI agents, suggested that the investigations into the improper fund-raising allegations were impeded as part of a cover-up.[65][66][67]
Those little numbers refer to specific citations, listed in the article, showing exactly where this information, as far as the article comes from.

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5151 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 115 of 158 (336742)
07-30-2006 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by MangyTiger
07-30-2006 7:59 PM


17 people convicted
Mangy, you suggest that I have somehow exagerrated the situation. I already provided ample evidence and a link from the wika article with citations that can easily be checked.
Note:
Seventeen people were eventually convicted for fraud or for funneling Asian funds into the United States elections. A number of the convictions came against longtime Clinton-Gore friends and political appointees.
1996 United States campaign finance controversy - Wikipedia
Is it so much to ask you guys to actually read my posts before claiming I have not subtantiated something?
I pretty much expect crash to ignore the truth, but I would hope some would check what I have already posted...
But I admit you went farther than most and actually admitted that this isn't something like an alien landing story, but something every major press reported on in-depth. Thanks for at least going that far to acknowledge reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by MangyTiger, posted 07-30-2006 7:59 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by MangyTiger, posted 07-30-2006 8:59 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5151 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 116 of 158 (336743)
07-30-2006 8:24 PM


please read wika link in it's entirety
wika isn't always right, but this is an excellent overview to start with since it includes a lot of references....not every detail is as up to date as it could, but it contains a whole lot of good information. If anyone wants to understand this issue with taking bribes from China, this is a good place to start that has mainstream press sources backing up the details given.
Please note that as you learn more facts, you will see it is actually worse than what the mainstream press and wika reported.
1996 United States campaign finance controversy - Wikipedia
One of the cool things about the article are the many links in the references where you can read press reports done as some of this unfolded, such as:
At the request of Congress, the Justice Department is looking at waivers Clinton granted to two companies in 1996 -- Loral Space and Communications and Hughes Electronic Corp. -- that allowed them to export the technology. Loral's chairman, Bernard Schwartz, donated more than $600,000 to the Democratic Party.
Both Loral, based in New York, and Hughes, a Los Angeles-based subsidiary of General Motors Corp., have denied wrongdoing.
In a related matter, The New York Times reported Sunday that in March 1996, Clinton overruled both the State Department and the Pentagon -- which wanted to keep sharp limits on China's ability to launch American-made satellites using Chinese rockets -- and turned oversight of granting permission for such launches to the Commerce Department, which was in favor of permitting them.
At the time, the Commerce Department was headed by the late Ron Brown, who was previously chairman of the Democratic National Committee.
One of the beneficiaries of that decision, according to the Times, was China Aerospace, a state-run Chinese company that employed Liu Chao-ying as an executive. CNN has previously learned that one-time Democratic fund-raiser Johnny Chung has told Justice Department investigators that he funneled $100,000 in cash from Liu to the Democratic National Committee during the 1996 presidential campaign.
Liu is a lieutenant colonel in the Chinese army, and the daughter of a top Chinese government official.
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/05/17/satellite.review/
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6605 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 117 of 158 (336755)
07-30-2006 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by randman
07-30-2006 8:18 PM


Re: 17 people convicted
I already provided ample evidence and a link from the wika article with citations that can easily be checked.
Yeah but the Wiki article doesn't provide a citation for the '17 convicted' claim (at least not that I could see).
I would also observe that I don't really consider 17 a 'multitude of convictions' as you claimed in Message 52
However, with a bit of digging I found something from the Department Of Justice which says the Campaign Financing Task Force prosecuted 19 people as of August 1999.
It should be noted that not all of these people were connected with the China angle (I haven't bothered to dig through the list to find out what the split is).
Actually from a quick read through none of the convictions seem to have anything to do with China. There are references to (illegal) contributions from a Japanese business man and a South Korean corporation but no mention of China.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by randman, posted 07-30-2006 8:18 PM randman has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5151 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 118 of 158 (336759)
07-30-2006 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by MangyTiger
07-30-2006 8:59 PM


Re: 17 people convicted
It certainly names a number of those convicted, and 17 is a multitude of convictions, especially considering Reno's blatant protection of the majority of conspirators.
In July 1998, the Justice Department's campaign finance task force head, Charles La Bella, sent a report to Janet Reno also recommending she seek an independent counsel to investigate alleged fund-raising abuses by Democratic party officials.[58] The media reported that LaBella believed there was clearly an appearance of a conflict of interest by Reno.[59] In his report to Reno he wrote: " [A] pattern [of events] suggests a level of knowledge within the White House”including the President's and First Lady's offices”concerning the injection of foreign funds into the reelection effort."[60] Additionally, La Bella stated: "If these allegations involved anyone other than the president, vice president, senior White House or DNC and Clinton-Gore '96 officials, an appropriate investigation would have commenced months ago without hesitation."[61]
.....
Critics such as columnists Charles Krauthammer and Morton Kondracke, as well as a number of FBI agents, suggested that the investigations into the improper fund-raising allegations were impeded as part of a cover-up.[65][66][67]
[edit]
Notable convictions secured
Even without an appointment of an independent counsel, the Justice Department's internal investigation was fruitful. The task force created to investigate campaign fund-raising irregularities during the 1996 U.S. elections secured criminal convictions against 17 people by 2001.
In addition to the convictions against John Huang, Johnny Chung, Charlie Trie, Maria Hsia, and James Riady (who was fined $8.6 million - the largest fine ever levied against an individual), Clinton friend Ernest Green, a former member of the Little Rock Nine, pleaded guilty in 2001 to failure to declare and pay taxes on $30,000 in income which he received in 1995 from Charlie Trie for a planned business venture between the two.

This message is a reply to:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5151 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 119 of 158 (336767)
07-30-2006 9:21 PM


more
WASHINGTON, D.C. - James Tjahaja Riady will pay a record $8.6 million in criminal fines and plead guilty to a felony charge of conspiring to defraud the United States by unlawfully reimbursing campaign donors with foreign corporate funds in violation of federal election law, the Justice Department's Campaign Financing Task Force and the United States Attorney in Los Angeles announced today.
In addition, LippoBank California, a California state-chartered bank affiliated with Lippo Group, will plead guilty to 86 misdemeanor counts charging its agents, Riady and John Huang, with making illegal foreign campaign contributions from 1988 through 1994.
Riady is one of 26 people and two corporations charged by the Campaign Financing Task Force, which was established four years ago by Attorney General Janet Reno to investigate allegations of campaign financing abuses in the 1996 election cycle.
Under the terms of the plea agreement, filed today in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles, Riady, a citizen of the Republic of Indonesia, will surrender himself to the jurisdiction of the court, despite the lack of an extradition treaty between the United States and Indonesia. Once he surrenders himself, Riady will then plead guilty to the felony charge contained within the information, enter a plea on behalf of LippoBank to the 86 misdemeanor charges contained within the information, pay $8,610,000 in fines levied against himself and LippoBank, and cooperate with the government's investigation.
The $8.6 million fine represents the largest sanction imposed in a campaign finance matter in the history of the United States.
...
In addition to Riady and LippoBank California, the Task Force has prosecuted 25 individuals and one corporation for offenses relating to violations of the campaign financing laws.
On June 21, 2000, Pornipol "Pauline" Kanchanalak pled guilty to conspiracy to cause false statements to be made to the FEC and to causing a foreign corporation to make an illegal contribution. On that same day, codefendant Duagnet Kronenberg pled guilty to violating campaign finance laws.
On June 2, 2000, David Chang, a member of the 1996 Robert G. Torricelli Campaign Finance Committee, pled guilty to violating federal election law by making illegal contributions to the 1996 campaign of Senator Robert Torricelli. He also pled guilty to witness tampering in connection with the campaign financing task force investigation. On June 6, 2000, Chang's codefendant, Audrey Yu, pled guilty to obstruction of justice under the same superseding indictment.
On June 1, 2000, Cha-Kuek Koo, a New Jersey businessman, pled guilty to violating federal election law by making illegal contributions to the Senator Robert G. Torricelli Campaign. Koo admitted to assisting David Chang in making conduit contributions using Koo's employees at LG Group, Executive Office of the Americas. Koo's sentencing has been set for September 7, 2000.
On April 5, 2000, a federal grand jury indicted two Buddhist nuns, Venerables Yi Chu and Man Ho, with contempt of court for failing to appear as witnesses in the government's criminal trial against Maria Hsia. Yi Chu and Man Ho remain fugitives.
On March 2, 2000, Maria Hsia was convicted in D.C. on charges of causing false statements to be submitted to the FEC. The trial had been postponed pending an appeal of a ruling by the U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C., which had dismissed some of the false statement counts. In May 1999, the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington, D.C. overturned the ruling and reinstated those counts. The task force dismissed a second indictment on tax charges after a jury in Los Angeles failed to reach a verdict. Hsia awaits sentencing.
On December 17, 1999, Yogesh Gandhi was sentenced to one year in prison for mail fraud, tax evasion, and violating federal election laws by aiding and abetting the making of a political campaign contribution by a foreign national.
On November 1, 1999, Yah Lin "Charlie" Trie, a Little Rock, Arkansas businessman, was sentenced, after pleading guilty, to a two-count information filed in Little Rock, Arkansas, to three years probation, four months home detention, 200 hours of community service, and a $5,000 fine for violating federal campaign finance laws by making political contributions in someone else's name and by causing a false statement to be made the FEC. Antonio Pan was also indicted with Trie in the District of Columbia, but has not yet been prosecuted because he has remained outside the United States.
On September 15, 1999, Lawrence Penna, the former President of a now-defunct New Jersey securities firm, was charged with violating election laws by funneling illegal campaign contributions to the 1996 federal election campaigns of President Clinton and Senator Torricelli. Penna's case was transferred by agreement to the Southern District of New York where charges relating to his violation of United States' securities laws were pending.
On August 16, 1999, a federal judge sentenced Robert S. Lee to three years of probation and 250 hours of community service for aiding and abetting the making of an illegal foreign campaign contribution to the Democratic National Committee.
On August 12, 1999, former Lippo Executive John Huang pleaded guilty to a felony charge, filed in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles, that he conspired with other employees of the Indonesia-based Lippo Group to make campaign contributions and reimburse employees with corporate funds or with funds from Indonesia. He was sentenced to one year of probation, 500 hours of community service, a $10,000 fine and directed by the judge to continue cooperating with the investigation as a condition of his probation.
On May 27, 2000, Berek Don, former GOP party leader in Bergen County, NJ, pleaded guilty to another conduit contribution scheme to the Senator Torricelli Campaign. Don awaits sentencing. On October 13, 2000 Carmine Alampi, a Bergen County New Jersey attorney, pleaded guilty to the same scheme and was fined $5000. He also awaits sentencing.
On March 23, 1999, Juan C. Ortiz, the Chief Financial Officer of Future Tech International, Inc., was sentenced to two years probation, $20,000 in fines, and 200 hours in community service for acting as a conduit for an illegal campaign contribution and participating in the reimbursement of eight other conduit contributions.
On December 14, 1998, Johnny Chung was sentenced to probation and 3,000 hours of community service for bank fraud, tax evasion and two misdemeanor counts of conspiring to violate election law.
On November 24, 1998, Howard Glicken, a fund-raiser for the Democratic party, was sentenced to 18 months probation, an $80,000 fine, and ordered to perform 500 hours of community service for violating campaign finance laws.
On November 4, 1998, Franklin Haney was indicted on more than 40 counts, including among others, conspiring with another to defraud the United States by impairing and impeding the FEC and conspiring to violate specific provisions of federal election law. He was acquitted of all charges on June 30, 1999.
On September 30, 1998, Democratic fund-raiser Mark B. Jimenez was indicted in Washington, D.C. on 17 counts of organizing, making and concealing illegal conduit contributions to a number of Democratic campaigns, including the Torricelli Campaign. In December 1998, Future Tech International, Jimenez's Miami based computer sales company, pleaded guilty to tax offenses resulting from its illegal deduction of a $100,000 contribution to the DNC and employee campaign contributions reimbursed through the company's payroll. On April, 15, 1999, Jimenez, who is now in the Philippines, was indicted in Miami on additional charges of tax evasion and fraud. The task force is pursuing Jimenez's extradition from the Philippines.
In 1997, the Task Force obtained guilty pleas from Democratic fund-raisers Nora and Gene Lum, and their daughter Trisha, and Michael Brown for illegal fund-raising activities after their cases were referred from Independent Counsel Daniel Pearson. In August 1998, Gene Lum pleaded guilty to filing a false 1994 tax return and falsely preparing Nora's 1994 tax return. After cooperating with the government, he was sentenced in June 1999, to two years in prison. Nora was sentenced to 5 months in a halfway house, 5 months in home detention, and ordered to pay a $30,000 fine. Trisha Lum and Michael Brown each received probation, a $5,000 fine, costs of more than $7,000, and were ordered to perform 150 hours of community service.
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2001/January/017crm.htm
The 8.6 million dollar fine was a small fee for the billionare, and Reno conveniently arranged that he not have to testify against Gore, Clinton and the DNC. Go back and read the press reports, and clearly the lightness of these sentences were considered somewhat outrageous, as well as the blatant cover-up engineered by Reno and the White House.

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5151 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 120 of 158 (336769)
07-30-2006 9:25 PM


might want to read this
Mr. INHOFE. Mr. President, I want you to listen. I am going to tell you a story of espionage, conspiracy, deception, and coverup, a story with life and death implications for millions of Americans, a story about national security, and a President and an administration that deliberately chose to put national security at risk, while telling everyone that everything was fine.
If it was written in a book, Mr. President, it wouldn't sell, because no one would believe it. If it was fictionalized in a novel, few could conceive it. But it is true.
For the sake of my statement today, I am stating that the President withheld information and covered up the Chinese theft of our technology. But I am realistic enough to know that a person with the history of deception this President has will have provided himself with some cover in case he got caught. So I am sure there is a paper trail that he can allege. The way the President probably covered himself was to include tidbits about this theft buried in briefings of 40 or 50 other items so the significance of it would not be noticed. But a paper trail would be established.
Anticipating that, I, over the weekend, talked to the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Porter Goss, and the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee at the time of the discovery of this secret, this information, Senator Arlen Specter. Neither chairman was notified of the W-88 nuclear warhead technology theft. And these would have been the first to be notified, Mr. President.
There can be no doubt that President Clinton engaged in a coverup scheme.
Let me read three paragraphs from last week's op-ed article by Michael Kelly in the Washington Post, entitled `Lies About China.' I am quoting now, Mr. President:
In April 1996, Energy Department officials informed Samuel Berger, then Clinton's deputy national security advisor, that Notra Trulock, the department's chief of intelligence, had uncovered evidence that showed China had learned how to miniaturize nuclear bombs, allowing for smaller, more lethal warheads . . .
Further quoting:
The Times reports that the House Intelligence Committee asked Trulock for a briefing in July 1998. Trulock asked for permission from Elizabeth Moler, then acting energy secretary. According to Trulock, Moler told him not to brief the committee because the information might be used against Clinton's China policy. . .
Further quoting:
[Page: S2614]
The White House's secret would have remained secret
had it not been for a select investigative committee headed by Republican [Representative] Christopher Cox. . .
But even using the President's fictitious paper trail, the earliest either chairman could have known about it would have been late in the spring of 1997, years after the Clinton administration learned of it and, of course, after the 1996 election.
I start, Mr. President, by listing a few things which we now know to be true, factual, incontrovertible, and nonclassified.
For years, the Clinton administration covered up China's interest of top secret U.S. nuclear weapons data. They never informed the Congress or the American people about what had happened or its significance to our national security.
Let me tell you what President Clinton did during this period of time.
During this period of time, the President misled the American people on numerous occasions about the threat posed by strategic nuclear missiles in the post-cold-war era.
During this period of time, President Clinton made statements on over 130 separate occasions, such as the following:--and I am quoting--
For the first time since the dawn of the nuclear age, there is not a single solitary nuclear missile pointed at an American child tonight. Not one. Not a single one.
During this period of time, he knew that China was targeting up to 18 intercontinental ballistic missiles at American children.
During this period of time, President Clinton signed export control waivers which allowed his top campaign fundraisers' aerospace company to transfer sensitive U.S. missile guidance technology to China.
During this period of time, he shifted the prime satellite export responsibility from the State Department, where it had always been to maintain security, to the Commerce Department so that it would be easier to share sensitive information with the Chinese and others.
During this period of time, President Clinton hosted over 100 White House fundraisers as a part of a larger aggressive scheme to raise campaign contributions, many from illegal foreign sources primarily, including sources in China. Among guests permitted to attend these White House fundraisers were a convicted felon and a Chinese arms dealer.
During this period of time, John Huang, Charlie Trie, Johnny Chung, James Riady, and others with strong ties to China, were deeply involved, with the President's knowledge, in raising Chinese-tainted campaign cash for the Clinton campaign.
During this period of time, John Huang, who had been given a security clearance without a background check, was permitted to receive numerous classified CIA briefings, both during and after his stay at the Commerce Department.
And during this period of time, President Clinton was successfully stopping the deployment of a national missile defense system--exposing every American life to a missile attack, leaving us with no defense whatsoever against an intercontinental ballistic missile.
Mr. President, China's theft of secret data on the so-called W-88 nuclear warhead may be one of the most serious breaches of national security in the history of our Nation, more serious than Aldrich Ames; perhaps more serious than the Rosenbergs.
The public needs to understand that this story is true. This is not about partisanship. It is not about some ancient history of some long gone cold war.
This is about the real world here and now. It is about national security in its most important aspects. It is about protecting our freedom and our existence as a Nation.
This is ultimately a matter which concerns the life and death of every American citizen.
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1999_cr/s990315-prc.htm

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by nator, posted 07-31-2006 9:20 AM randman has not replied
 Message 128 by AdminOmni, posted 07-31-2006 5:29 PM randman has not replied

  
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