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Author Topic:   CrashFrog vs. Juhrahnimo: A friendly discussion
Juhrahnimo
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 164 (179166)
01-20-2005 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by purpledawn
01-20-2005 3:29 PM


Re: Mismatch
PD writes:
Now do you understand why I don't want to get into this type of discussion with you? I've already read the apologetics.
Ok, you won't discuss it, fine. At least tell me why you reject "the apologetics"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by purpledawn, posted 01-20-2005 3:29 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Juhrahnimo
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 164 (179177)
01-20-2005 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by lfen
01-20-2005 1:25 PM


.....
Great, great. Great comments, no doubt. But my question remains unanswered. We're talking about Christianity here (we can slice up some of the other religions on different threads). Here, we're talking about disciples who were reported to have seen a man who rose from the grave, supposedly the Son of God. If they stole his body so they could point to an empty grave (their marketing centerpiece), what in the world would be the point in that? They would have to have a purpose? Even if it was just to play a joke on the high priests! WHY would they do such a thing? Ok, forget it since you're avoiding the question anyway. Or maybe let me ask it with a different spin: Why would they be willing to live a lie? For money? Fame? Power? Very, very possible. That certainly COULD have been their motive, yes indeed. But if it WAS their motive, it kind of backfired. They were persecuted, beaten, jailed. Their possessions were taken away, and they were threatened with death. And they died for what they claimed to be true. All for promoting what they KNEW was a lie? This is completely different from brainwashed FOLLOWERS who were, well, BRAINWASHED to believe a lie but just didn't KNOW it was a lie. The FOUNDERS actually KNEW it was a lie (assuming the story about stealing the body was true), yet they stuck to the story. Perhaps they hoped that if they stuck it out, enough people would eventually believe the story and money, fame, and power would follow. Sort of "putting in their time" and sticking to their marketing plan, you might say. But how long should they stick to their story before they realize it's time to shut the doors of "the business"? Let's say, at the VERY least they should have realized that it was time for damage control activities when some of them started getting killed for their faith. How much torture should a person endure before realize the joke is over? True, a captured drug dealer may NEVER talk no matter how much torture he experiences, but he has a good reason (obvious). Captured soldiers may never reveal military secrets despite endless torture, because they love their country and would rather die than betray. We can think of NUMEROUS examples. But what reason did the disiples have? Why would ANYONE endure torture, and even DIE for something that they KNOW for a FACT is a lie? I'm not talking about a maniac who was bent on suicide anyway. I'm talking about a group of guys who saw something saw with their own eyes, and experienced with their own senses and knew was true. To stop the torture and to spare their own lives, they would onle have needed to recant their story. Certainly at least a COUPLE of these guys would have cracked and said, Heck, it's only a lie anyway; I'll just admit it and maybe they'll let me go. Basically the business is bankrupt, so close the doors (we made no money, didn't become famous, didn't become powerful, so what's the point in continuing this little charade?)
But the disciples, or FOUNDERS of Christianity DIED for their faith because they KNEW what they had seen was true. You've heard this from the apologists numerous times, but yet you still reject it. Just like the democrats refuse to accept Bush. Or the repubs refused to accept Clinton. No matter HOW right or wrong either may have been, objectivity was not an obstacle. No matter how true something is, you can STILL refuse to accept it. But you'll still be without excuse at the throne of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by lfen, posted 01-20-2005 1:25 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by lfen, posted 01-20-2005 11:52 PM Juhrahnimo has not replied
 Message 154 by Asgara, posted 01-20-2005 11:59 PM Juhrahnimo has not replied
 Message 159 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-21-2005 12:28 PM Juhrahnimo has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 153 of 164 (179181)
01-20-2005 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Juhrahnimo
01-20-2005 11:42 PM


The annoying difficulty of one very long closely space paragraph
Juhranimo,
To begin with I've not read the entirety of your reply and I'm not sure I will. Not because of content but because it is one very long closely spaced paragraph. If your ideas are important to you why won't you take the small amount of time to express them in a readable format?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-20-2005 11:42 PM Juhrahnimo has not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 154 of 164 (179187)
01-20-2005 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Juhrahnimo
01-20-2005 11:42 PM


Re: death of disciples
Juhrahnimo writes:
And they died for what they claimed to be true
Could you please give us some support for this statement. I have researched this in the past and could find nothing definitive.
All the stories I could find concerning this, talk of tradition or stories say; in other words hearsay.
Asgara writes:
Matthew — by tradition - either died by the sword in Ethiopia, or Persia, possibly 60ce, or was martyred in Egypt, or is unknown, or died of old age
Mark — by tradition — dragged by horses to his death in Alexandria, Egypt, possibly 68ce, or torn to pieces by a mob
Luke — by tradition — hanged in Greece between 75 and 100ce, or died of old age, or claims that no information is available
John — by tradition — survived boiling in oil, sentenced to the mines on Patmos — freed and served as Bishop in Turkey, died of old age in Ephesus 100ce or somewhere between 98 and 117ce. — his banishment was either during the reign of Nero 54 -68ce or the reign of Domitian 81 — 96ce
Peter — by tradition — crucified by Nero in either 64ce, 66ce or 67ce
Paul — by tradition — either beheaded by Nero in Rome in 64ce, 66ce, 67ce or 69ce, or torn to pieces by wild animals
James, son of Zebedee — biblical — beheaded in Jerusalem 44ce
Thomas — by tradition — speared in either India or Persia 52ce or beheaded or shot by arrows while at prayer
James — brother of Jesus — by tradition - thrown from pinnacle of the temple, survived and beat to death in either 62 or 66ce
James — son of Alphaeus — by tradition — martyred in Egypt, crucified in Syria, stoned in Jerusalem, 62 or 60ce, one source told the same story of James brother of Jesus for this James
Philip — by tradition — either died a natural death or was martyred in Hieropolis in Turkey in 52 or 54ce. Possibly flogged, imprisoned and crucified
Thaddaeus — by tradition — martyred w/ Simon in Persia or Turkey possibly Mt Ararat by either arrows, a lance, crucifixion or beaten (or a combination) 72ce
Simon the Zealot — by tradition — either crucified or hacked to death or sawn in two in either Persia, Georgia, Iberia, Samaria or Lincolnshire in either 61 or 74ce
Andrew — by tradition — was either crucified or bound to death in Asia Minor in either 74ce or on November 30, 60ce
Judas Iscariot — biblical — either hanged himself or fell and burst open 34ce
Bartholomew — by tradition — whipped to death, flayed and beheaded, beaten and crucified and beheaded, or just speared in either Armenia, Russia or India 52ce
As you can see, I found no real references for any of this information. If anyone has some historical reference for any of the reported deaths, I would be interested in reading it.
This message has been edited by Asgara, 01-20-2005 23:01 AM

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-20-2005 11:42 PM Juhrahnimo has not replied

  
Juhrahnimo
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 164 (179210)
01-21-2005 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by crashfrog
01-20-2005 1:04 PM


!!!!!!!
Crash writes:
You should have started by trying to prove that God exists; but apparently you didn't fully understand my views or what atheism is.
What? I was TRYING to find out what happened in your life that caused you to drop Christianity and convert (or whatever) to atheism. I thought I pointed that out, and you basically answered it, thank you.
As far as "trying to prove God's existence" I'm STILL trying to figure out how I need to approach it. I TRIED to find out from you what your requirements are to prove God exists. You NEVER answered my question. With all due respect (sorry if this sounds cocky), but you continue to tap dance around the question of "what would God need to do to prove to YOU he exists"?
You wrote in post # 136:
Crash writes:
I think I did already. Look, if you can't imagine what it would be like if God took an active role in the physical world, then there's nothing I can do to help you overcome this deficiency in your imagination.
Crash, I can imagine all sorts of things that God can do to be active in the world. And so can YOU. But you must be afraid to express your requirements, perhaps because you feel it might be a commitment and you'll have to believe in God if he actually accommodates you. Stop worrying so much; I'm not trying to corner you. Just trying to talk through what you're really expecting, if anything.
As if turns out, you started out by saying God need only to "appear". I asked what that would look like to meet your requirements (e.g. showing up in you're living room and saying "I'm God wouldn't suffice; Jimmy Carter could do that). After you apparently realized that was a mistake (I guess), you backpeddled and said he needed to "act" in the world. When I speculated that you "backpeddled" you got upset and I backed down. You tried to state that "appearing" and "acting in the world" were really the same thing, so (being too embarrassed for your sake) I bought off on that and continued to ask for a definition of "act/appear" and how it would LOOK to us, or what God's "operating plan" would look like. Still no answer (instead, I got the post above insisting that you "already had" defined it and that it was my weak imagination that was the problem because I should know myself what God should do to "act" (you perhaps couldn't conceptualize it yourself). So, now we've come full cirle AGAIN, and still don't know what your requirements might be for God's existence to be proven. Yet, you point out that I should have "started by trying to prove God exists" when your posts fully reveal that you would actually accept NOTHING as proof since you wrote in post # 131:
Crash writes:
Huh? I think I've made it pretty clear what I expect God to do in the world.
Even though you DIDN'T make ANYTHING clear in that regard. And you wrote in post # 108:
Crash writes:
I think it was said already, but:
1) Show up.
Followed immediately in the same post with:
Crash writes:
I don't see how a demostration of godly power would suffice, either - how could you substantiate infinite power with finite actions?
And now you're going to tell me there's a problem with MY imagination?
The problem is not my imagination, or even yours. The problem is beginning to look like (based on your posts) the same one numerous other people have had throughout history. You simply won't believe. You have chosen to go your own way.
In the beginning, God walked and talked with Adam in the garden, and Adam KNEW God was God. Yet, he disobeyed, disrespected, and didn't believe God. And even though God banished them from the garden, God STILL walked and talked with mankind. Cain, sacrificed to God and KNEW God was God. God walked with ("showed up") and SPOKE to Cain (Gen 4:6), but yet Cain rose up and killed his brother Abel. And to beat all, when God met Cain along the way and asked him why he was not with his brother, Cain further disrespected God by lying "I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?" What in the world was that? He KNEW God was God, and God was right there! But yet....?
In Egypt, God performed miracles by the hand of Moses, and they called them magician's tricks. Eventually Pharaoh was forced to yield when he saw God "act" in his world, but the effect didn't last long and Pharaoh forgot God's "acts" and he said:
EX. 14:5 writes:
Why have we done this, that we have let Israel go from serving us?
Pharaoh and his people had so soon and COMPLETELY forgotten! Pharaoh pursued, and the Israelites SAW God "ACT" before their very eyes, destroying Pharaoh's armies, and:
EX. 14:22 writes:
And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
Talk about seeing God "ACT" with their OWN EYES! But what did they do? They STILL rebeled against God. The first good excuse they found was a delay in Moses' return from the mountain and they rejected God and built a golden calf in God's place! Not to mention constant "murmuring" and complaining, and desiring to be back in Egypt when their bellies weren't as full as they liked, or didn't like what was on the limited menu. God's ACTING didn't do ANYTHING for those who simply refused to believe. But Moses believed, and Joshua believed along with many others by seeing the same "acts" of God. It's back to what this thread basically developed into: You simply CHOOSE to believe or reject God based on what YOU WANT. It's NOT that God has failed to act or reveal himself.
But people like Joseph, who NEVER saw God appear (he had dreams. Do you have dreams? Doesn't mean God appeared) to him, STILL believed and trusted GOD. Job never saw GOD but believed in him through good times and bad (God spoke to Job from the whirlwind, but that was WAY AFTER Job was proven). Elijah brought fire down from heaven and the people believed and slew the prophets of Baal, while other people chose to hate Elijah. Many other prophets performed miracles over the centuries; some people chose to believe in God, while others reached out to kill God's prophets. Finally, the Son of God came to earth, performing miracles never seen before (by those people at that time at least). And they even killed him because they didn't believe. Then he rose from the dead; some believed, some simply didn't while reaching out to kill those who did believe.
Do see what's happening here? We've seen through history that those who believe in God will do so whether God "appears" to them or not. And those who insist on going their own "way" and rejecting God, will do so even if God walks with them in their own Garden. God wants children who love him; so he tends to give us the opportunity to seek him and find him spiritually so we can have an even greater reward (by believing WITHOUT seeing, John 20:29). You and your supporters refuse to believe God's word, but you have no difficulty choosing to believe those (scholars) who try to discredit the Bible; because it suits your desires. Again, God wants children who love him willingly; not people who need proof "shoved down their throats" (I apologize for the expression) before they believe.
Crash, I first gave you the benefit of the doubt (in post #1) by saying I thought it was someone else's fault that you turned to atheism. Now I'm convinced otherwise: In actuality, you have no one to blame but yourself.
I'm finished with our "friendly discussion". Go ahead and have the last word on this thread; I won't be responding any longer since everything has been hashed and rehashed thoroughly enough. I have all the answers I think I'll get out of you, and it's been enlightening (although sad). I'll continue my occasional lurking on this forum as I have in the past, but it'll take quite a bit to get me to break cover again. I'm not spiritually mature enough to keep up with the excellent job many Creos are doing on this board, so I'll be silent for the foreseeable future. If my behavior or attitude has caused any damage to their testimony, I apologize and ask forgiveness.
Crash, I pray for a nail-pierced hand to reach down to touch and heal you and so many others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by crashfrog, posted 01-20-2005 1:04 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Trae, posted 01-21-2005 3:10 AM Juhrahnimo has not replied
 Message 158 by crashfrog, posted 01-21-2005 11:22 AM Juhrahnimo has not replied
 Message 162 by lfen, posted 01-21-2005 2:22 PM Juhrahnimo has not replied
 Message 163 by Loudmouth, posted 01-21-2005 3:25 PM Juhrahnimo has not replied

  
Trae
Member (Idle past 4307 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 156 of 164 (179223)
01-21-2005 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Juhrahnimo
01-21-2005 1:49 AM


Re: !!!!!!!
I'll note that you keep on harping that he said, "1) Show up." yet omit that he went onto explain that a simple appearance wouldn’t be proof.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-21-2005 1:49 AM Juhrahnimo has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 157 of 164 (179252)
01-21-2005 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Juhrahnimo
01-20-2005 12:49 PM


Re: Well...
quote:
And that's why you will be "without excuse". Sorry.
No need to be sorry - I've heard the christian scare tactics 100s of times before as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-20-2005 12:49 PM Juhrahnimo has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 158 of 164 (179309)
01-21-2005 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Juhrahnimo
01-21-2005 1:49 AM


With all due respect (sorry if this sounds cocky), but you continue to tap dance around the question of "what would God need to do to prove to YOU he exists"?
Look I don't understand how I can answer it any better. And it all rather depends on which God we're talking about, now wouldn't it? If you propose that God always acts undetectably, then there's no possible evidence that God exists, by definition.
After you apparently realized that was a mistake (I guess), you backpeddled and said he needed to "act" in the world.
Absolutely no backpeddaling occured. Acting and appearing are the same thing.
You simply won't believe.
Says you, but remember that I became an atheist while I still believed in God. I didn't choose to be an atheist. I had no choice because there's no evidence God exists. I'd love for there to be the God of the Christian Bible - an infinite, interested power for good in the world.
But, for all intents and purposes, there isn't. Hence, atheism.
Crash, I first gave you the benefit of the doubt (in post #1) by saying I thought it was someone else's fault that you turned to atheism.
Go fuck yourself. You insult me with your arrogant presumption that I'm too stupid and spineless to make up my own mind about what I believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-21-2005 1:49 AM Juhrahnimo has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 164 (179335)
01-21-2005 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Juhrahnimo
01-20-2005 11:42 PM


Re: .....
If they stole his body so they could point to an empty grave (their marketing centerpiece), what in the world would be the point in that? They would have to have a purpose? Even if it was just to play a joke on the high priests! WHY would they do such a thing?
Okay... a political activist is executed by the government in power. And you don't see the point in making it seem as if the activist in question was a divine being?
All for promoting what they KNEW was a lie?
Eh. Who knows if they knew it was a lie? They might've just eaten one too many of those neato mushrooms growing by the sea of Galilee.
That would sure explain Revelations.
Why would ANYONE endure torture, and even DIE for something that they KNOW for a FACT is a lie?
Your reasoning seems to be that if someone is tortured and/or killed for their beliefs, and they stick to their beliefs, then their beliefs are objective fact.
In which case, I urge you to take a spin down by Guantanamo Bay, see evidence that you should convert to militant Islam, and rededicate your life to destroying America.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-20-2005 11:42 PM Juhrahnimo has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 160 of 164 (179337)
01-21-2005 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by lfen
01-20-2005 1:25 PM


Founders
quote:
What purpose(s) do founders of any religion have? What purposes did the founders of Judaism, Islam, Jainism, Zorastarism, Buddhism, Taosim, etc. have?
I wonder if dissatifaction with their current religion was part of what drove the respective founders to change.
The Jews tell a story of Abraham destroying the idols in his fathers shop. He found the idols didn't do anything and was dissatisfied.
As the Greek influence came into Israel area, some Jewish reformers tried to get Judasim to ease up on the more restrictive rules, especially the ones that kept the men out of the athletic games.
The movement after the destruction of the temple may have been a continuation of that idea. Some people were dissatisfied with the Jewish religion.
In a book on Jewish history I found a comment that Mohammed wanted to turn his people away from polytheism and was impressed by Judaism's uncompromising monotheism. He did not view Christianity as monotheistic. So Mohammed was also dissatisfied with his people's current religion and sought.
From what I have read about John Smith, he was also dissatisfied with Christianity of his day.
Didn't Buddha also seek to make changes?
It seems to be a recurring theme that I've noticed in what I have read. Have you noticed it?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by lfen, posted 01-20-2005 1:25 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by lfen, posted 01-21-2005 1:57 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 161 of 164 (179353)
01-21-2005 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by purpledawn
01-21-2005 12:37 PM


Re: Founders
I wonder if dissatifaction with their current religion was part of what drove the respective founders to change.
...
Didn't Buddha also seek to make changes?
It seems to be a recurring theme that I've noticed in what I have read. Have you noticed it?
Good point, I agree. IIRC most of the founders of religions started out to reform a religion with the result of the religion eventually evolving into a new religion with the old religion also continuing.
Buddha was a hindu who found the very harsh denial of the body as not being adequate for the realization he sought. He eased up on the austerities and watched his own mind rather than punish his body. He instituted two major and ultimately unacceptable reforms to orthodox Hinduism. He abolished the caste system and he denied the divine authority of the Vedas.
The early history of Christianity is so minimal I don't know what can be said about it with any certainty. My best guess is the Jesus was an awakened reformer like the Buddha at a time when as you noted there was a lot of discontent and alternatives being examined. Unlike the Buddha who had decades to teach, an early death meant few if any grasped what Jesus was teaching or received what in Buddhism is called transmission, a student attaining the consciousness of the master. My take on Constantine and even such people as Paul and Augustine is that they couldn't really understand the teachings of Jesus and developed an orthodox religion with features of Judaism and of the mystery religions of that time and place that made sense to them and imposed it in the name of Jesus. But I've only ambiguous hints that that may be the case. So I won't claim that that is what happened only that it is one possiblity.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by purpledawn, posted 01-21-2005 12:37 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 162 of 164 (179361)
01-21-2005 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Juhrahnimo
01-21-2005 1:49 AM


True believer syndrome
Do see what's happening here? We've seen through history that those who believe in God will do so whether God "appears" to them or not. And those who insist on going their own "way" and rejecting God, will do so even if God walks with them in their own Garden. God wants children who love him; so he tends to give us the opportunity to seek him and find him spiritually so we can have an even greater reward (by believing WITHOUT seeing, John 20:29). You and your supporters refuse to believe God's word, but you have no difficulty choosing to believe those (scholars) who try to discredit the Bible; because it suits your desires.
Which God? Which of the books claiming to be the word of God? You believe what the authorities of the Christian church claim, other true believers follow different organizations such as Judaism, Mormonism, Islam, etc. At one time Communism attracted many true believers. My indictment of your approach to religion is you swallow propaganda unthinkingly and then filled with emotion regurgitate it.
Those are stories about Adam, Cain, etc. and are being used to persuade people to accept certain beliefs. These are ideas of what people should and shouldn't do. The problem is the old religious authority tradition of the priests: "Do as we say or you will go to hell. If you follow our laws you will go to Heaven". It's a power trip . You have found a sense of security in your religion, and Jews, Mormons, Muslims, Hindus, etc. are using the same psychological mechanisms of belief. Atheism is a more advanced belief system and so is a threat to your security of your more primitive beliefs so you label atheists in prejorative terms.
Again, God wants children who love him willingly; not people who need proof "shoved down their throats" (I apologize for the expression) before they believe.
Crash, I first gave you the benefit of the doubt (in post #1) by saying I thought it was someone else's fault that you turned to atheism. Now I'm convinced otherwise: In actuality, you have no one to blame but yourself.
There is no blame in honestly thought out beliefs. And proof is not a practise of "shoving things down people's throats". Proof is the outcome of reasoning from evidence. I won't say Christianity was shoved down my throat as a child but it was given to me as if it was factually true. When I reached the age of reason and began to think for myself I discovered that religion claimed many things that were not scientifically, historically, or logically supported. I've no problem with believing in God, loving God, the universe, sentient beings and acting with compassion. I have a problem with being required to be a true believer and holding to way outdated nonsense and social belief or else I will be punished if I don't go along with you, or Jerry Falwell, or some other raving true believer. You don't have a monopoly on truth, and certainly not on reason.
lfen
edit: changed sentience to sentient
This message has been edited by lfen, 01-21-2005 14:26 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-21-2005 1:49 AM Juhrahnimo has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 164 (179373)
01-21-2005 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Juhrahnimo
01-21-2005 1:49 AM


Re: !!!!!!!
quote:
Talk about seeing God "ACT" with their OWN EYES! But what did they do? They STILL rebeled against God. The first good excuse they found was a delay in Moses' return from the mountain and they rejected God and built a golden calf in God's place!
Why should we believe that this ever happened?
quote:
In the beginning, God walked and talked with Adam in the garden, and Adam KNEW God was God. Yet, he disobeyed, disrespected, and didn't believe God. And even though God banished them from the garden, God STILL walked and talked with mankind. Cain, sacrificed to God and KNEW God was God. God walked with ("showed up") and SPOKE to Cain (Gen 4:6), but yet Cain rose up and killed his brother Abel.
Why should we believe that this ever happened?
quote:
Elijah brought fire down from heaven and the people believed and slew the prophets of Baal, while other people chose to hate Elijah.
Why should we believe that this ever happened?
Starting to get my drift? To believe in the Bible we must first believe in the Bible. It is circular reasoning. These answers may work for you, but for someone who doesn't believe in the Bible it means nothing. If I told you a story about Leprechauns who appeared to Patty O'Malley, and Patty O'Malley then denied they ever existed would I then have a reason why you reject the existence of Leprechauns? Do you not believe in Leprechauns because you have chosen to go your own way?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-21-2005 1:49 AM Juhrahnimo has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 164 (182430)
02-01-2005 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by coffee_addict
01-17-2005 4:12 AM


Re: Attitude not good.
By the way, good to have you here
Thanks. God bless!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by coffee_addict, posted 01-17-2005 4:12 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
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