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Author | Topic: CrashFrog vs. Juhrahnimo: A friendly discussion | |||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
So, define what "act" is and what you would expect to experience if God "acted". I think I did already. Look, if you can't imagine what it would be like if gods took an active role in the physical world, then there's nothing I can do to help you overcome this deficiency in your imagination.
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CK Member (Idle past 4128 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
quote: I don't see this in that post crash? was it deleted? J - if you said this, then I forget "layman's level" it's weak stuff. You might want to present your better material as what you've said so far has been heard 100 times before.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I don't see this in that post crash? was it deleted? Yeah I guess it's the bits he deleted.
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2303 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
But I'm not talking about brainwashed people. I'm talking about the FOUNDERS of a faith. Marshall Applewhite, founder of Heaven's Gate WAS one of the identified dead in Rancho Santa Fe. Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
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Juhrahnimo Inactive Member |
That was significant; I meant founders of "THE" faith, namely the one I'm talking about; Christianity. I didn't proofread. Now the question should read differently.
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Juhrahnimo Inactive Member |
Yes, it was part of rantings that I later deleted, although apparently before you saw it. It was too far out of bounds for this thread.
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Juhrahnimo Inactive Member |
Crash writes:
Sorry, but no. I was merely pointing out that CK is rejecting anyone who doesn't support his view in this. Unless it's a soundbite that he can dig up from somewhere.
Oh, I get it. You're convinced you're the very definition of "spiritual maturity"... Crash writes:
Imagined? You're tempting me again. Unlike Christ, I fall for it. So here I go; WHICH imagined slights? I was falsely accused and I pointed that out, and it was admitted by RAZD. Done as far as I'm concerned. Maybe you didn't actually read those posts.
but it doesn't apparently occur to you that you spent the first 40 posts of this thread ignoring your own topic and instead trying to defend yourself against imagined slights. Crash writes:
Yeah, I know. Thanks again for pointing out I'm a sinner. I'm only a sinner saved by Grace. I do have a problem with pride, yes sir, and I'm working on it.
They call that "pride", you know. Crash writes:
I apologize for not measuring up to Truthlover's standards.
We have seen the very spiritual mature; one of them posts here under the name "Truthlover." Crash writes:
Crash, Crash, Crash. That's why you lost your faith. Because you looked too much to fallible PEOPLE, and they disapointed you. Instead, you should have looked to Christ; the ONLY man who was and is perfect. But you've already discredited him too, so what's the point?
Pride, pride, pride. I don't know why I thought I could learn anything from you.....
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Loudmouth Inactive Member |
quote: Well, hold on for a sec. I am not going to argue whether or not evolution is true, but rather the difference in the evidence between scientific claims and biblical claims. Firstly, what physical evidence do I have that would lend credence to the biblical stories. What physical evidence am I able to interpret for myself. In the case of the evolution vs. creation debate, all of the physical evidence is available to both sides of the debate. From there, both sides interpret the evidence. With biblical claims the only interpretation of events that we have are the gospel writers. That's it. No matter your opinion of evolution, you have to admit that biblical claims and evolutionary claims are on different levels.
quote: I don't discount eyewitness accounts out of hand. I am discounting the gospels as eyewitness accounts because they simply can not be shown to be eyewitness accounts. For instance, none of the gospel writers were there for the birth of Christ, so the nativity stories are obviously not eyewitness accounts. Crashfrog has also outlined other evidence which demonstrates that the gospels were more than likely oral tradition. Next, we have a very biased source, a religious movement that needs to cement itself as worshiping a divine figure.
quote: Firstly, I never said that I would believe, only that it would lend more credence to the gospel stories. The only source for the stories found in the gospels is from the religion that depends on those stories. Even you have to admit that this is a biased source, even if the stories end up being accurate. Why don't we have stories written by the Roman soldiers who witnessed the angels? Why would the Pharisees deny a risen Messiah, a Messiah they had been waiting for for hundreds of years? Why would an educated Roman, unbiased by previous religious beliefs or by the Jesus movement, write about this supposed risen figure? I can't see why these type of people would not have written an account.
quote: We have early records of Muslims being persecuted, persecuted by christians nonetheless. We have Muslims crashing planes into tall buildings for their religion. How can you deny that Muhammed is the Prophet of God, and the Koran is the Word of God? This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 01-20-2005 12:42 AM
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Juhrahnimo Inactive Member |
CK writes:
And that's why you will be "without excuse". Sorry.
You might want to present your better material as what you've said so far has been heard 100 times before...
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Abshalom Inactive Member |
Quetzal:
Actually, there may be places in the upper Potomac where one could toss a coin across the river. I lived on the North River, a branch of the Potomac, when we were first married, and the Cacapon River, another tributary of the Potomac in Hampshire County, W.Va, near where Washington's family had owned land used to grow hemp for ropes used to tow barges up and down the Potomac and around Great Falls. There are many narrow gorges in the upper Potomac, so rather than totally discount the story by whether one can toss a coin across the river, I will instead stick with the argument that no one but an idiot spend-thrift would throw away a week's wages in such an frivilous way. And now, back to the Santa biography. Regards, Abshalom
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Instead, you should have looked to Christ; the ONLY man who was and is perfect. If God doesn't exist, then the Christ stuff can't be true either. I'm sure Jesus was a great guy, and I'm sure that most of what happens in the Bible didn't actually happen. There's much in that life of Christ that informs my worldview to this day; there's much in his life worth emulating, like the humble self-sacrifice of the cross. And even better yet it doesn't have to have happened for it to be meaninful, and to be worth emulating. If these sound like contradictions to you, it's because you're not mature enough.
But you've already discredited him too, so what's the point? As I said; the divinity of Christ relies on the existence of God. You should have started by trying to prove that God exists; but apparently you didn't fully understand my views or what atheism is.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4678 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
But the question I'm asking is: What purpose do you think these "founders" of Christianity had for promoting this supposed "lie" of Jesus rising from the grave? I'm guessing you think the disicples perhaps stole the body out of the grave, as the "elders" of the synagogue told the soldiers to report? Matt. 28:13 What purpose(s) do founders of any religion have? What purposes did the founders of Judaism, Islam, Jainism, Zorastarism, Buddhism, Taosim, etc. have? I personally don't know the basis for the Gospels. Earl Doherty THE JESUS PUZZLE argues interestingly for Paul teaching a mythological Christ that was given an earthly existence by the Gospel writers via midrash. My best guess is that there was probably a teacher who experienced awakening and tried to convey it to some followers but his life was cut short perhaps by crucifixion and his teachings were misunderstood and misinterpreted and then when Constantine adopted the sect as the official religion of the Roman empire there was a further revision and rewriting of the faith. A thousand years of cultural indoctrination makes for massive believability as can be exampled by many of the major world religions. Mormonism has had much less than that and yet millions find it quite believable. We are dealing with the psychological nature of human beings. lfen
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 477 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
the frog writes:
Hey crash, I think you meant TrueCreation. We have seen the very spiritual mature; one of them posts here under the name "Truthlover." Proof that girls are evil. We know that girls require time and money.girls = time X money We know that time is money, right?Time = money Girls = money2 According to a great philosopher, money is the root of all evil.Money = Squrt(evil) Girls = Squrt(evil)2 = evil Therefore, we are forced to conclude that girls are evil.
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Loudmouth Inactive Member |
quote: No, he means truthlover. Do a search for his posts. He used to be a regular poster when I started on this site about a year ago. He is truly a breath of fresh air and we all miss his input. TrueCreation is also great, don't get me wrong, but truthlover is more philosophical than TrueCreation. TC is the scientist of the duo.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
From your Message 81
quote: As I stated in Message 109The impression I get from you is that if people don't believe, then they have chosen to reject true information, not that they have found the accounts or evidence to be untrue and have rejected false information. Your response has proven my point. I shared with you why I feel the author of the Book of Matthew probably was not an eyewitness to the ministry of Jesus. I showed you just a few items that are troublesome and the information I found concerning those items. My conclusion was that these few items lead me to question whether the author of Matthew was actually an eyewitness. Read the extreme judgements you've issued. Because I have reason to doubt an unknown author, you claim I've discredited all the disciples and God. Because I don't agree with most apologetics and personally have found many of their conclusions inane, empty, lacking sense, silly etc., you claim I have discredited their sources. You accuse me of not wanting to believe God's message when I've made no such statement. Discerning if an author is true or not does not detract from God's message. Because I have chosen one quote out of an entire book, you accuse me of not reading the whole book. BTW, I have read the whole book. The fact that Strobel became a Christian wasn't relavant to my post. He made HIS choice based on what HE saw and heard. That's HIS choice. I have to make MY own choice. The quote was to show that Christian scholars agree that the authors of the gospels are technically unknown.
quote:I explained that my feelings are based on your posts to date. All I know of you are your posts. Even though I can choose to accept or reject evidence, if I reject or question evidence that you consider to be true, it bothers you. Now do you understand why I don't want to get into this type of discussion with you? I've already read the apologetics. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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