CrashFrog vs. Juhrahnimo: A friendly discussion

Crash,
I truly think you got "messed up" by some non-bible believing person who gave you some MAJOR false impressions. Let's debate this. I prefer this just to be bewteen us (others can look on if it interests them of course).Since you mentioned Jesus in a different post, tell me what it was that led you to accept him as your savior? (you stated you were brought up as an atheist)

No, J. I just read the Bible, observed that God did absolutely nothing that people said he did; that all the explanations people gave for that phenomenon were exactly like the explanations battered wives give for their abusive husbands.My faith "matured" to the point where I could not expect God to intervene, nor for prayer to have any effect except as a meditation and a key for helping me cope with outcomes. At that point, I was like "what's the point?" I realized that the God I believed was indistinguishable from no God at all, hence, atheism. (Agnostic atheism, just to be precisce.)In other words I became an atheist not because somebody told me to, or gave me "false impressions", but because the God of Christianity cannot be reconciled with observations of the world we live in; and because the only God that can be so reconciled is a God indistinguishable from one that doesn't exist. At the time it felt like Jesus filled a hole in myself, made me more complete. You know, like people say.Perhaps that was true; perhaps it was merely a teenager's desire to fit in with friends who were doing the same; maybe it was some of both. At any rate I no longer have that need, and atheism, in addition to being so obviously right, makes me feel a whole lot better about my station in the universe.

I can appreciate your feelings. But focus on Jesus, not "people" who say anything to get your attention (includes me).First, and sadly, today's Christianity has become more of a business venture for many people. It's all marketing, growth, expansion, money, and bragging rights. But don't let the false Christians ruin God's plan for you. Look at Jesus, and everything will look different. People even call Paul the world's greatest salesman, and try to use that as an excuse for their actions. In actuality, Paul got himself mobbed, beat up, whipped, jailed, and eventually killed for what he taught; wow, what an amazing salesman!But, let me point specifically to your: Exactly! "like people say", or like the "business" people say. You were probably taught something like "...there's a God-shaped vacuum in your heart that only Christ can fill" or something to that effect (you called it a hole; same thing). But the Bible does NOT teach this! Instead, the Bible teaches that we are fallen creatures and must DIE in Christ and rise up with him in the spirit and become new creatures. The Bible flat out calls this a mystery! But modern Christians have tried to circumnavigate this mystery by explaining with the "god-shaped vacuum" garbage. That's why there are so many "back-sliders" or disapointed christians who suddenly become atheists or agnostics. They were led down the wrong road, and taught to believe something that "kinda" seems to make sense, but is NOT Biblical.
So now here you are, having first had this "hole" or "vaccuum" briefly filled, only to have "matured" into thinking that God doesn't really exist (no scientific or observable evidence) after all. Sounds like you believed in the equivalent of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny at best. And I say that to the shame of those who taught you about Christ. The best con artist on the planet couldn't have engineered a better plan of deception than that!So, now you (and so many, many others) have gone from feeling "filled" and knowing God exists and looking forward to a heavenly home, to becoming an athesist without any hope in the afterlife (when the lights go out, they throw dirt on you and "that's all, folks!") or eternity. Do you now feel more hopeful than before? Does your current "feeling" give you more hope than before (for you personally). Don't respond to that, please; just think about it and answer it for yourself.But here is something that you could respond to, please: When you "believed", did you believe that Jesus died and rose from the grave? Do you [still] believe it now? If so, why. If not, why not? (for both questions). Sorry for being do windy. Please understand this is just discussion; no winners to losers here. We're not trying to corner each other or body slam each other, and no cheap shots. Just pure discussion. When we're finished, we walk away without hard feelings.

Juhrahnimo writes:

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Do you now feel more hopeful than before?

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Oh, god...not another "atheism = nihilism" thread.

This is not a Pascal's wager type thread. Please nevermind.
At least Crash understands what's going on here, thank goodness.

yes. I'd say he answered you. completely.

Oh, yes. Completely. Glad you stopped by to clear that up. You contributed alot to our discussion.

you come in on my thread and walk all over it with irrelevant comments and get it closed down and expect me to have any sympathy for you?yes I would say that frog answered you and that you are incapable of taking his answer at value.I also think it is very arrogant of you in the first place to think that you can "correct" his thinking, when he has shown much clearer thought process than anything I have seen from you.want more?

He hasn't answered my question. He hasn't even SEEN my question yet; he hasn't been online since my last post. Who said anything about "correcting" his way of thinking? We're just trying to discuss perspectives. We're exploring what some people told him vs might actually be in the Bible. What is a discussion board for? What are you talking about? What have you been drinking? Nice talking to you.

and I notice that you don't apologize for your rude behavior on the other thread either.I also read on another thread where he said he didn't want to be your pet rehabilitation project.drinking? what a nice backhanded snide little insult.rude, arrogant, insulting ... what else do you have to show?certainly not any evidence.

Juhrahnimo responds to me:

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This is not a Pascal's wager type thread.

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Did I say Pascal's Wager? No. I said "nihilism." You know...the idea that life has no purpose, no distinction of morality, destruction of the social and political organization, etc. What on earth makes you think that being without god means a person is without hope? That life has no purpose?Just because you need god to give you purpose doesn't mean everybody else does. We have been through this concept over and over and over again on this thread, thus my groan at yet another newbie trying to say that atheists have no morals, no hope, and would sooner die or kill people than anything else.

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At least Crash understands what's going on here, thank goodness.

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Indeed. That's why he answered your question before you even asked it: One wonders why you overlooked it. Instead, you sailed right on by it to express your expectation that atheists have no hope. That they're nihilists (or, more accurately, sociopaths).

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

I'll readily admit this was the case; but here's the thing - what's the point of God if he isn't those things? I mean I could believe in a God incapable or unwilling to intervene in the world, but what would be the point? What would distinguish that belief from atheism? I will go ahead and answer this, because I feel it's important you know. Yes, I'm much more hopeful now as an atheist than I was as a believer. I'm more fulfilled and confident in my future as an atheist. Yes. No. Or rather I don't believe it to be very likely. I wasn't, after all, there. Because such an act is, to the best of human knowledge, impossible.

I just stooped to your level since that's what seemed to float your boat. But if you'd rather I stay on the high road, I can do that. So, nevermind my responses since I didn't realize you can only dish it out but can't take it. One of your supporters called Christianity, etc. B.S. (spelled out completely) but yet you didn't jump to say THAT was rude. So much for consistency.This message has been edited by Juhrahnimo, 01-16-2005 20:08 AM

Awwww, poor baby. Big, bad, mean ol' Jujrahnimo walked all over poor innocent little RAZD's thread. I'm sure that's the FIRST time anything like THAT has happened on this forum. I soooo, sorry. I did it by accident, didn't mean to.

Does anyone remember Stephen whats-his-name ... Freakwell, or something like that?