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Author Topic:   An unforgivable crime?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 71 (323202)
06-19-2006 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Legend
06-17-2006 7:20 PM


Re: Let'em all out!
hell, why not?
From a moral point of view, what they did could be considered unforgivable. But, from a legal point of view, we don't try minors as adults so we should let them out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Legend, posted 06-17-2006 7:20 PM Legend has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by rgb, posted 06-19-2006 12:51 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 71 (323262)
06-19-2006 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by New Cat's Eye
06-19-2006 10:24 AM


Re: Let'em all out!
CS writes
quote:
But, from a legal point of view, we don't try minors as adults so we should let them out.
Some would argue that sociopathic children can never be cured. Perhaps our current legal system is ill equipped to deal with such an issue?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-19-2006 10:24 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Modulous, posted 06-19-2006 1:01 PM rgb has replied
 Message 20 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-19-2006 1:53 PM rgb has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 18 of 71 (323266)
06-19-2006 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by rgb
06-19-2006 12:51 PM


Re: Let'em all out!
Some would argue that sociopathic children can never be cured. Perhaps our current legal system is ill equipped to deal with such an issue?
Their sentence was indefinite - they have been released on parole, which they will spend the rest of their lives on...having to report to a parole officer. They can be imprisoned indefinitely should there be concern about the risk they pose.
I think, given the complexities of these situations, this is a pretty good solution. If they remained evidently sociopathic in the 8 years they were in custody, they wouldn't be released.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by rgb, posted 06-19-2006 12:51 PM rgb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by rgb, posted 06-19-2006 8:03 PM Modulous has replied
 Message 22 by Legend, posted 06-19-2006 8:05 PM Modulous has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 19 of 71 (323269)
06-19-2006 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by rgb
06-16-2006 1:19 PM


quote:
What many authors seemed to agree on regarding early behaviors that are tell tale signs, and probably are the causes themselves, for hidden desires to commit hateful, hurtful, or even murderous acts are finding amusement in torturing little animals. First, you start out with insects, then reptiles, then rodents, then your family dog, then other people's pets, etc. For certain people, it is suppose to give you some kind of orgasm-like kick out of hurting other things or people.
George W. Bush used to blow up frogs by sticking firecrackers in them.
Explains a lot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by rgb, posted 06-16-2006 1:19 PM rgb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by rgb, posted 06-19-2006 8:07 PM nator has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 71 (323294)
06-19-2006 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by rgb
06-19-2006 12:51 PM


Re: Let'em all out!
Some would argue that sociopathic children can never be cured. Perhaps our current legal system is ill equipped to deal with such an issue?
Perhaps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by rgb, posted 06-19-2006 12:51 PM rgb has not replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 71 (323535)
06-19-2006 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Modulous
06-19-2006 1:01 PM


Re: Let'em all out!
Modulous writes
quote:
I think, given the complexities of these situations, this is a pretty good solution. If they remained evidently sociopathic in the 8 years they were in custody, they wouldn't be released.
Yet, I was able to go through middle school and high school without anyone knowing I was racist.
It is called adaptation to whatever social role you are expected to take. For some people, hiding their hidden desires or real personality is not only possible but essential (guess where I got this phrase from). I can only tell you that I realized very early on that most people would have treated me differently if they found out I hated and looked down upon people of other races. Even though I was still racist inside, I was able to change my outward appearance. I even began to hang out with black students.
Racism is a relatively mild sociopathic behavior, and yet it was that hard for me to change. Imagine a worse form of such a personality disorder.
I can't say if these boys have been "cured" or not. What I can say is if it was up to me I wouldn't have risked more innocent lives just so a couple of "ex"-sociopathic individuals could have a chance at.. what, stuff more battery acid down other people's throats?
But say that it was right for the legal system to let these two out. I want to see them do something amazing with their lives, like become the next saints.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Modulous, posted 06-19-2006 1:01 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Modulous, posted 06-20-2006 7:47 AM rgb has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 22 of 71 (323536)
06-19-2006 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Modulous
06-19-2006 1:01 PM


Re: Let'em all out!
quote:
If they remained evidently sociopathic in the 8 years they were in custody, they wouldn't be released.
you seem to have far more confidence in the British penitentiary system than the evidence suggests.
Edited by Legend, : spelling

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Modulous, posted 06-19-2006 1:01 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by rgb, posted 06-19-2006 8:19 PM Legend has not replied
 Message 34 by Modulous, posted 06-20-2006 7:52 AM Legend has replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 71 (323537)
06-19-2006 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by nator
06-19-2006 1:13 PM


schrafinator writes
quote:
George W. Bush used to blow up frogs by sticking firecrackers in them.
Really? Is there a link where I can read this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by nator, posted 06-19-2006 1:13 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by nator, posted 06-19-2006 8:42 PM rgb has not replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 71 (323549)
06-19-2006 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Legend
06-19-2006 8:05 PM


Re: Let'em all out!
Legend writes
quote:
you seem to have far more confidence in the British penitentiary system that the evidence suggests.
While I cannot say anything about the British legal system, I can tell you that sex offenders in the States have the highest rate of criminal recidivism, especially when their crimes involve children. And yet, we continue to release them into the world to rape/molest more innocents.
Our legal system was established based on the concept that we would rather release 100 guilty convicts rather than imprison 1 innocent individual. I can't say I've made up my mind on this yet. Does anyone here agree or disagree with this? If so, why or why not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Legend, posted 06-19-2006 8:05 PM Legend has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by MangyTiger, posted 06-19-2006 8:32 PM rgb has replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 25 of 71 (323560)
06-19-2006 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by rgb
06-19-2006 8:19 PM


One of you is wrong (at least)!
rgb writes:
I can tell you that sex offenders in the States have the highest rate of criminal recidivism
From Message 6:
crashfrog writes:
There's only one kind of criminal in the US with a lower rate of recidivism than sex offenders
Either of you got any figures?

Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by rgb, posted 06-19-2006 8:19 PM rgb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by rgb, posted 06-19-2006 9:49 PM MangyTiger has not replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 26 of 71 (323565)
06-19-2006 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by crashfrog
06-16-2006 8:27 AM


See message 25
As per Message 25 you and rgb have claimed pretty much exact opposites about rates of recidivism - hopefully one of you can produce some figures to back up their claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 06-16-2006 8:27 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 27 of 71 (323569)
06-19-2006 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by rgb
06-19-2006 8:07 PM


bush n blowing up frogs
frogs and firecrackers
Also, remember this?:
Bush is a effed-up individual
In 1999, during the 2000 Republican Presidential primary race, conservative commentator Tucker Carlson interviewed Bush for Talk Magazine (September 1999, p. 106). Excerpt from this interview is quoted below:
In the weeks before the execution, Bush says, a number of protesters came to Austin to demand clemency for Karla Faye Tucker. "Did you meet with any of them?" I ask. Bush whips around and stares at me. "No, I didn't meet with any of them," he snaps, as though I've just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. "I didn't meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with Tucker, though. He asked her real difficult questions like, 'What would you say to Governor Bush?'" "What was her answer?" I wonder. "'Please,'" Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, "'don't kill me.'" I must look shocked ” ridiculing the pleas of a condemned prisoner who has since been executed seems odd and cruel ” because he immediately stops smirking.
Stone cold bastard.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by rgb, posted 06-19-2006 8:07 PM rgb has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 71 (323586)
06-19-2006 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by New Cat's Eye
06-16-2006 8:00 AM


Punishment: What is appropriate?
I talk with minors that have committed heinous crimes, some of whom are confused, some remorseful, and others just distantly crazy.
I believe that anyone under 12 is as much a victim as a villain and should be given the chance at Psychiatric care. i once knew a boy of 14 who had participated in brutally murdering a teacher and bashing her with a rock. He was given an opportunity to come clean and confess to the system but tried to fight his crime.....and as a result is now serving LIFE plus 14 years. the court of appeals and the supreme court turned down his pleas for resentencing.
Lorenzo was so young when I met him, and i think that proper counseling and mentoring may have saved his life....but as the state says, what about the teacher? A beautiful 29 year old who was mangled by three kids greed for her car.

“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way” --C.S.Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-16-2006 8:00 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 71 (323598)
06-19-2006 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by MangyTiger
06-19-2006 8:32 PM


Re: One of you is wrong (at least)!
MangyTiger writes
quote:
Either of you got any figures?
I was thinking that Crashfrog was being sarcastic. But if you must, the following is taken from the federal bureau of justice statistics.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm
Under "Recidivism", it says:
quote:
Recidivism
Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime.
The 272,111 offenders discharged in 1994 accounted for nearly 4,877,000 arrest charges over their recorded careers.
Within 3 years of release, 2.5% of released rapists were rearrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for a new homicide.
Sex offenders were less likely than non-sex offenders to be rearrested for any offense -- 43 percent of sex offenders versus 68 percent of non-sex offenders.
Sex offenders were about four times more likely than non-sex offenders to be arrested for another sex crime after their discharge from prison -- 5.3 percent of sex offenders versus 1.3 percent of non-sex offenders.
Right after, it deals with sex offenders only.
quote:
Sex offenders
On a given day in 1994 there were approximately 234,000 offenders convicted of rape or sexual assault under the care, custody, or control of corrections agencies; nearly 60% of these sex offenders are under conditional supervision in the community.
The median age of the victims of imprisoned sexual assaulters was less than 13 years old; the median age of rape victims was about 22 years.
An estimated 24% of those serving time for rape and 19% of those serving time for sexual assault had been on probation or parole at the time of the offense for which they were in State prison in 1991.
Of the 9,691 male sex offenders released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, 5.3% were rearrested for a new sex crime within 3 years of release.
Of released sex offenders who allegedly committed another sex crime, 40% perpetrated the new offense within a year or less from their prison discharge.
I have underlined what I think are important statements regarding our question.
While sex offenders are less likely to commit ANY crime after release, they are 4 times more likely than other offenders to recommit their sex crimes. Crashfrog was right that murder (homicide) related crimes seems to indicate less rate of recidivism than sex crimes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by MangyTiger, posted 06-19-2006 8:32 PM MangyTiger has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by crashfrog, posted 06-19-2006 10:19 PM rgb has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 30 of 71 (323613)
06-19-2006 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by rgb
06-19-2006 9:49 PM


Re: One of you is wrong (at least)!
I was thinking that Crashfrog was being sarcastic.
I wasn't being sarcastic. From
Sex offender - Wikipedia
quote:
While often considered highly dangerous by the public once released from prison, sex offenders have a relatively low reoffense or recidivism rate. Second only to murders most sex offenders have between a 3 and 13% chance of reoffense.
This statement is supported from this report from the NCIA:
No webpage found at provided URL: http://66.165.94.98/stories/SexOffendersReport.pdf
quote:
Certainly, any instance of sexual recidivism is cause for concern, and we should not lose sight that even a 1% sexual recidivism rate represents a certain number of victims of sexual assault. However, there is a rather widespread misconception that sex offenders, as a whole, are repeat sex offenders. While this study is obviously unable to determine the actual rate of reoffense, it is clear that a sex offender returning to an Ohio prison for a new sex offense is a fairly unusual occurrence.
” Study by the Ohio Department of Corrections finding a sexual recidivism rate of 8% among released prisoners
quote:
The largest, most sophisticated analysis was performed by Karl
Hanson, Solicitor General of Canada. His 2004 quantitative metaanalysis
examined research evidence and recidivism risk factors in
a total of 95 studies involving 31,000 sexual offenders with an average
follow-up time of 5 years. Hanson’s findings include:
Overall recidivism rate for new sex crimes: 13.7%
Recidivism rate for child molestation: 12.7%
Recidivism rate for child molestation within families: 8.4%
Recidivism rate for rape: 18.9%
A less nuanced study of former prisoners performed by the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS)
reached similar conclusions, and found that people convicted of sex crimes had much lower reoffense
rates than people convicted of other crimes. The BJS study followed 9,700 people incarcerated
for sex crimes for three years after release. The findings include:
5.3% of people imprisoned for sex crimes were rearrested for another sex crime.
3.3% of people imprisoned for child molestation were rearrested for another sex
crime against a child.
In contrast, the general rearrest rate for people released from prison was 68%. The highest rates
were stealing motor vehicles (79%) and possessing or selling stolen property (77%)
I have underlined what I think are important statements regarding our question.
I think you've made an enormous error in suggesting that the data you've underlined (or any of the rest of it) supports your contention that "sex offenders in the States have the highest rate of criminal recidivism". Unless you mean to suggest, in an unclear way, that sex offenders in the United States system have a higher recidivism rate than sex offenders in other countries. It's certainly the case that such rates are higher for such persons in the US compared to the UK or Canada, but I'm not aware that the numbers indicate that the US is the highest worldwide.
Certainly the contention that, within the US, sex offenders have even a high recidivisim rate is not supported by the Bureau of Justice or any other source.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by rgb, posted 06-19-2006 9:49 PM rgb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by rgb, posted 06-19-2006 11:00 PM crashfrog has replied

  
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