Children shouldn't play with statistics...
There also seems to be a high risk by getting an abortion
Do you honestly believe your source was an objective study of abortion? Where every reference to a clinic uses the term "abortion mill"? Where they essentially admit lack of stats and then explain that it is part of some conspiracy of misrepresentation?
You will note that some of their stats aren't even from this country, and for all practical purposes deals with lack of training and medical facilities (and LEGALITY) than anything else.
I find this supposed compassion for women incredibly hypocritical and deeply repulsive. I mean, we should care about the woman so much that we should make it illegal so if she does have one it is guaranteed to be the worst quality?
Crocodile tears.
I will return to this subject of risk later...
Yes but most abortions do not fall under these situations, refer to the stats I posted earlier on this thread.
First of all this does not address the subject. Your comment was that women that are pregnant are responsible for having gotten that way. My reply was that there are rape victims and people who were in commited relationships (or any other type) using birth control that also get pregnant.
The fact that MOST abortions do not fall under these situations would not somehow disqualify them from being "innocent" of their pregnancy.
But let's look at those stats, I assume you are referring to your post #272, where you had the following...
quote:
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http://womensissues.about.com/...stats/a/aaabortionstats.htm
Abortion Statistics - U.S.
1,370,000 abortions occur annually in the U.S. according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute. Click here to see the approximate number of abortions in the U.S. per year from 1973-1996.
88% of abortions occur during the first 6 to 12 weeks of pregnancy
47% of abortions are performed on women who have already had one or more abortions
43% of women will have had at least one abortion by the time they are 45 years old
Abortion Statistics - Decision to Have an Abortion (U.S.)
25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing
21.3% of women cannot afford a baby<
14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child
12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy)
10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career
7.9% of women want no (more) children
3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health
2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health
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I'll start by saying how amazed I was that from these stats you said (to schraf) that most women choose abortion for selfish reasons. I'm a bit confused as only one, maybe two of those categories involve selfishness (how it affects their wants) and add up to only 18.7% of abortions.
The rest reflect health and welfare concerns for the child or dire risk to the mother DURING pregnancy or after birth. I might add "victim of rape" is not on that list.
It should also be noted that the risk issue is not just a "worry", but an issue of A RISK (which implies a known issue). Given that 88% are performed before the 12th week it is not surprising that few are done because of a definite risk.
But here is where I pull off the kid gloves and really start working over a jackass that pretends to know what stats actually say. Did you by any chance check the references on these stats? Did you look any further that to see 3.3 and 2.8 involve health risk so your point is proven?
The site you quoted from states that it's data comes from the Alan Guttmacher Institute. So, I went there to see if they had more information. Indeed they did including risk of abortion versus birth, and the nature of abortions!!!! My my my.
Just so you can check my work,
go to here and download the preview in pdf. I will admit up front that the work was in conjunction with an apparently proChoice medical organizations (the PRCH). However since you already quote mined from Guttmacher's study I can only assume there is no problem if I use it as a ref?
This data is also a bit more up to date (2003). Indeed we now see a category for rape and incest (1%) and other (4%). But the interesting thing to note is that this tells us that women actually give multiple reasons. It is only the top reason which is used for the statistical breakdown given above. The average number of reasons is 3.7. Thus you would have no way of knowing how many include concerns for health.
I will state again, health problems are for KNOWN problems (or known extra risk) and given the fact that almost 90% of abortions occur during the first 6-12 weeks, it is not unusual to see that as a very small percentage of the TOP REASON.
Let's see what this says about WHO is having abortions:
*More than 90% of couples report that they use a contraceptive method during any given month, although not always correctly and at every act of intercourse.
*Nevertheless, almost half of all pregnancies are unintended.
*53% of women who have unintended pregnancies were using a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant, although usually not correctly every time.
So this means that while people may not have been using contraceptives properly, the MAJORITY were trying to prevent pregnancy.
And...
*More than half (52%) of women having abortions have had no prior
abortion, and 61% have had a prior birth.
*Women who have had an abortion are at an elevated risk of having another because they are more likely to be sexually active, to be able to become pregnant, to have difficulty using contraceptives effectively, to be willing to end an unintended pregnancy by abortion and to belong to subgroups with high rates of unintended pregnancy.
*If a sexually active woman were to use abortion as her means of birth control and wanted two children, she would have about 30 abortions by the time she reached age 45.
*Use of abortion as a primary method of birth control is not common. If it were so, the large majority of abortions would be repeat abortions.
This not only puts a different picture on the bare stat you originally used, it reverses the picture you have tried to hang on those seeking abortions.
Despite those having had an abortion being in a higher risk group for more abortions (definitely the stereotype you are placing on most women having abortions), the statistics show that MOST women having abortions are NOT doing so repeatedly and certainly not as their means of conception.
Indeed MOST women have already had a child and so may be dealing with the impact a pregnancy or child will have on the family, and not just on her wishes to keep having sex.
Now let's go back to that risk thing.
But first, remember how your "abortion mills" link stated that proChoice stats skew data on abortion by not including associated problems in their stats? Just to nix that...
*The mortality statistics reported here are based on abortion mortality surveillance conducted by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). These statistics count all deaths associated with abortion, not just those attributed to abortion, and include significantly more abortion-related deaths than are reported on death certificates.
Good, so what are the risks of abortion?
*Abortion is one of the safest surgical procedures for women. The risk of death associated with abortion is approximately 0.6 per 100,000 abortions, and the risk of major complications is less than 1%.
*The risk of death when a pregnancy is continued to birth is about 11 times as great as the risk of death from induced abortion. (Note: The calculation of mortality from childbirth omits deaths from miscarriage and ectopic pregnancy.)
*Each year, about 10 women, on average, die from induced abortion,
compared with about 260 who die from pregnancy and childbirth.
This safety factor decreases AFTER 12 weeks, meaning it becomes more dangerous than pregnancy after the 12th week, but as we have seen most of them occur BEFORE 12 weeks.
And as you can see, their listed mortality due to continuing a pregnancy is actually lower because they did NOT include miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies (which kill BEFORE birth). Thus the actual risk of abortion is even LOWER compared to pregnancy.
Oh yeah, if you actually care about facts, maybe you should read the whole pdf file and notice that illegality and laws requiring "time to think about abortion" actually INCREASE the risks to the life of the mother by forcing her to wait.
Now let's see WHAT they are aborting, based on WHEN they are having abortions...
*Almost 90% of abortions are performed in the first trimester of pregnancy (in the first 12 weeks after the first day of the last menstrual period).
*More than half of abortions are performed before 9 weeks after the last menstrual period, or within 5 weeks of the first missed period.
* Fewer than 2% of abortions are performed after 20 weeks.
*An estimated 0.08% of abortions are performed after 24 weeks, when the fetus may be viable (AGI, 1997).
You did say you were for IUDs and the Pill right? It appears that most abortions occur when the gestational being hasn't changed much from the stage that those contraceptives would have worked. And that doesn't even take into account the fact that miscarriages are still pretty common at that stage of gestation.
Only 0.08% could even be considered deliverable and survive, and less than 2% would be able to survive even on future technologies (unless you count growing them in tubes).
I'll leave it to you to look up what the largest reasons are for having delayed abortion into later months where it is viable (hint: legalities and antiabortion social pressures).
So we can see that statistically you have no legs to stand on. Thanks for playing the statistics game and good luck next year.
No, there is and there were
I have already explained that a fertilized egg does NOT necessarily become a baby. Check the stats since you seem to like them so much.
An implanted egg does not necessarily become a baby. Check the stats.
Only after a number of weeks of implantation does the gestational being have good odds of making it till birth. The majority of abortions are performed within the time frame that natural miscarriages account for many losses of the gestational being.
And again, this does not say anything about unknown complications which might occur during pregnancy or at birth, as well as the child being born deformed (and in a way not known until birth).
I have personally known two women capable of conception but not of carrying a child to birth due to implantation problems.
I also knew a woman who successfully had one child only to suffer numerous miscarriages afterwards. Despite desperately wanting another child her body kept rejecting the fetuses several months into pregnancy. It was horrible and devastating to this woman because she wanted a baby.
A pregnancy is NOT a guarantee of anything even many months in.
To call fetuses "future babies" and suggest they would make it if just given a chance, is purely juvenile, if not borderline infantile behavior. It is projecting a fantasy world on reality.
It is not only cruel to women who don't want to have children for valid reasons, but cruel to those who want them but can't because biology isn't that simple.
This message has been edited by holmes, 09-21-2004 07:33 AM
holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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