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Author Topic:   P.Z. Myers in the news (the catholic church communion wafer incident)
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 91 of 104 (475800)
07-18-2008 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Granny Magda
07-18-2008 9:00 AM


Convergent word usage.
Myers writes:
by refusing to ridicule the ridiculous....
bluegenes writes:
Once again, ridiculing ridiculous beliefs is not bad behaviour. It is a legitimate weapon in ridding the world of ignorance and superstition.
Well, I'd certainly never read him in 2006, and I knew little of his personal philosophy, but it looks as though I've been doing an almost word perfect job of defending his position in several posts above, Granny!

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Deftil
Member (Idle past 4455 days)
Posts: 128
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 04-19-2008


Message 92 of 104 (475857)
07-19-2008 8:51 AM


Jesus and Mo

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 93 of 104 (475858)
07-19-2008 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Deftil
07-19-2008 8:51 AM


Convergent posting.
Convergent language use (see above) and now convergent posting. And creationists don't believe the coincidences when we explain convergent evolution.
http://EvC Forum: P.Z. Myers in the news (the catholic church communion wafer incident) -->EvC Forum: P.Z. Myers in the news (the catholic church communion wafer incident)
{ABE}There are three cartoons on the subject. The most recent one might interest Straggler, as it involves complex transubstantiation theology.
Jesus and Mo
Edited by bluegenes, : addition

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 94 of 104 (475981)
07-20-2008 10:18 AM


And now, for some real blasphemy!
The contents of P. Z. Myers blog are nothing compared to this stylish piece of ridicule.

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 95 of 104 (476772)
07-26-2008 6:03 PM


South Park
Did anyone notice that the most recent episode of South Park was a rerun of the Fantastic Easter Special? This is the one where PZ's primary attacker, Bill Donahue the head of the American Catholic League, orders Jesus to be killed and makes himself Pope.
Is there some prescience going on here concerning character assessment?

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3373 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 96 of 104 (476811)
07-26-2008 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by New Cat's Eye
07-11-2008 11:39 PM


Re: your "different view"
I'm late to this thread. I hope you'll forgive my butting in. I'd like to note my take on this, in case it is useful.
The religious are free to believe whatever nonsense they please. I suppose we all agree on this.
Different religions subscribe to different collections of nonsense, often mutually incompatible, and some people subscribe to no religion at all. Therefore any demand for respect by any religion is tantamount to demanding that many other people subscribe to a lie.
The upshot I see is that no-one has any duty of respect or anything else to any religion of which they are not a member. The tenets, customs and taboos of a religion apply only to its members; non-muslims can make pictures of Mohammed, non-catholics need not revere wafers.
This brings us to public discourse, as, for example, in the formulation of laws. Public discourse needs a common ground, so religious notions do not qualify. If someone happens to be interested in a topic for religious reasons, that is fine, but their pronouncements need to be based on evidence and reason, which do form common grounds for discussion.
If a catholic ridicules a wafer, the catholic church can of course object. If a non-catholic does so, the church should have no recourse unless they can field arguments based on evidence and reason.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 97 of 104 (476847)
07-27-2008 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Granny Magda
07-18-2008 9:00 AM


Joe Nickell for the win
The most recent Point of Inquiry (podcast) interviews Joe Nickell, who puts forward pretty much the views I hold. Aggressive rationalism is unhelpful in convincing people that they're right and, instead, there exists a better middle way between credulity and confrontation.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 98 of 104 (476852)
07-27-2008 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Artemis Entreri
07-15-2008 4:59 PM


*delurks*
this is a nation of protestants
No it isn't. It's 26% Roman Catholic. About 35-40% Protestant (17% Baptist, 7% Methodist, 5% Lutheran, 3% Presbyterian, 2% simple Protestant, 2% Pentacostal, 2% Anglicant but not all of them would identify with Protestant) and 15% Atheist. So actually its a nation whose largest unified religious sect is Roman Catholic.
Data from wiki's article on US Demographics.
by protestants
Mostly protestants, with some Catholics, Quakers, Unitarian and Deists.
and for protestants.
Because Protestants were having such a hard time. Here I was thinking it was set up to create a place without governmental/institutional sectarianism.
Hi Artemis, we haven't met. Hope you enjoy your stay here.
Mr_Jack writes:
Myers has behaved badly
This is of course opinion. I don't see what is bad behaviour about anything he has done. It is not bad behaviour to draw cartoons of Mo with a bomb on his head - it's an artistic statement. It might not be very clever or good, but that isn't the point.
There is no bad behaviour in putting a crucifix in a jar of piss. Though I'm not sure what the artistic statement on that was meant to be. It would have been bad to steal a crucifix from St Paul's and dunk that in a vat of dog's piss.
There is no bad behaviour in driving a nail into a couple of pages from some books and a wafer that some guy has held whilst speaking in latin. Tens of thousands of Jews were executed because it was alleged that a few of them might possibly have done this.
Also of note, that particular wafer was held hostage, sheathed in a condom by the original 'kidnappers' as a protest against the Catholic psycho-biological war they are waging against the poor (especially African nations) and the easily manipulated. I wouldn't have heard of this protest were it not for the famous face of Myers being involved.
The astonishing thing is that the friend of the original student who was accused of the "most vile act imaginable" (kidnapping the host) is also facing sanctions/suspension. What the hell did he do? Associating with a blasphemer is a crime now, too?
And, once again, there is no special privilege for religion here. I also think we should respect people's irrational emotional attachment to, say, their home, their school, the flag of their country, a certain band or their local football team with respect. Because, quite fundamentally, a society in which people's foibles are treated with respect is a better society to live in.
I agree, we should respect people's irrational emotional attachments. However, when people are so irrational about a symbol that they will threaten the life, education or career of a person who commits a faux pas with regards to said symbol need a perspective check. Myers is taking the flak by actually doing something offensive putting the incident with Webster Cook and his friend into perspective whilst also making a statement about the Dark Ages origin of the Eucharist (ie., its extra-biblicality) and the witch Jewhunts/massacres/pogroms/genocides that followed the Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus sentiment in the 13th Century all the way up to WWII.
Humans are perfectly capable of committing horific acts based on a rumour of something horrible happening to a wafer somewhere by someone because of the RCC. We need to make sure this doesn't happen again and sometimes - that can be acheived with a slap to the collective faces of those that take things far too seriously. It's not pretty, and it's not a solution that we should rely on exclusively (and PZ doesn't for sure).
Of course, PZ isn't the bad guy here: Without Donohue whipping the masses into frenzy, most people would have been mostly entirely ignorant of the powderkeg that lies within extremist Catholocism.
Let's show how desperately these people need a recalibration of their sense of outrage/morality, here is an excerpt of one the 12,000 emails that PZ received:
quote:
I don't think I've ever before come across such prejudice and hatred in print!
Seriously, there are people who are either very very sheltered (and yet use the internet and read atheist and religious blogs) - or they really need some perspective. What is the worst thing that has ever been printed as far as prejudice or hatred is concerned. Well that's debatable but I think Mein Kampf is probably something that floats through one's mind during the thought process. Do statements about torturing a wafer really hold up to something like "If the Jews were alone in this world, they would stifle in filth and offal", or maybe "First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. ..." (Luther).
Of course it isn't the most vilest thing they've ever seen in print. They probably know that too. But their passions are so enflamed by someone like Donohue or their own priest or simply based on what they have been indoctrinated with all of their lives they this kind of hyperbole comes naturally.

Incidentally MrJack, I wasn't necessarily directing these comments straight at you: Just using them as a convenient springboard to come out of hiding and put my own 2 cents in, though anglagard's post made it difficult since he said what I was going to say
However, I am curious for a further explanation on this 'bad behaviour'. What is bad? Saying that he's going to torture a cracker? Well, maybe it's bad behaviour, but I'd consider smoking a cigarette to be much worse behaviour - and yet I wouldn't point out that Hitchens was behaving badly simply because he had a ciggie during a debate with Mugabe (even in a non-smoking lecture hall!).

Aggressive rationalism is unhelpful in convincing people that they're right and, instead, there exists a better middle way between credulity and confrontation.
Most of the time PZ is quietly mocking, informative and thought-provoking. He maintains interest by occasionally stirring things up a bit. Otherwise he'd end up like the 20 billion other blogs saying the same things out there: unread by anyone but long-running fans and a few trolls etc. I'd love Donohue to read my blog and consider it worthy enough to right a press release about it.
That said: the middle ground has been tried and tested. Almost universally the good points went unheard/unread. Myers tries a different style: Mostly be a wonderful teacher of new things, explaining points using calm constructive language with occasional outbursts of emotion.

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 99 of 104 (476885)
07-28-2008 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Dr Jack
07-27-2008 6:48 AM


Re: Joe Nickell for the win
Mr. Jack writes:
The most recent Point of Inquiry (podcast) interviews Joe Nickell, who puts forward pretty much the views I hold. Aggressive rationalism is unhelpful in convincing people that they're right and, instead, there exists a better middle way between credulity and confrontation.
Actually, in the only bit where aggressive superstitious people are mentioned (people like Donahue) Nickell says he does change his tack, and confront them head on.
More importantly, his claim that the approach he has been using for forty years has been effective is bizarre. It's the year 2008 (not 1808) yet half the population of his country believe that the earth is less than ten thousand years old due to superstition, and most of the other 50% have superstitious delusions of some sort also, like the magic cracker one.
IMO, the more ridicule these kind of beliefs face, the more the world is provoked into thinking, and the better a place it's likely to be.
It's no good bringing up a strawman about people's irrational emotional attachments, as you did further up the thread. We all have non-rational emotional attachments, but we do not have to have silly ones that are harmful to others, so we do not require religions with a history of threatening those who disagree with them with death, especially when elements in those religions are still using the death threats in modern times (which is what Myers was reacting to).
I agree with Nickell's way of approaching the frightened family that believes it has a ghost, but the Donahues of this world are something different.

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mark24
Member (Idle past 5194 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 100 of 104 (476892)
07-28-2008 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by bluegenes
07-28-2008 7:46 AM


Re: Joe Nickell for the win
bluegenes,
IMO, the more ridicule these kind of beliefs face, the more the world is provoked into thinking, and the better a place it's likely to be.
Amen.
Ridiculous ideas deserved to be ridiculed, particularly when they result in threats of violence.
I am intolerant of this kind of shit & fail to see what's wrong with my intolerance.
Mark

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 101 of 104 (673107)
09-13-2012 8:50 PM


Bump and a plug - PZ Myers to be in Duluth, MN Sun. Oct. 7
Meeting starts at 9:00 am - I may need to stay up all night to make it. Look for someone bleary and stupid looking.
PZ's blog on it:
I’m finally going to visit Duluth
The Lake Superior Free Thinkers site:
LAKE SUPERIOR FREETHINKERS – Humanists | Secularists | Agnostics | Atheists
quote:
On Sunday, October 7th at 9:00 AM, Lake Superior Freethinkers will host PZ Myers in a presentation at its monthly meeting in the Radisson Hotel on Superior St. in Duluth. Put this on your calendar now!
Dr. Myers is an associate professor of biology at the University of Minnesota Morris and the author of one of the most popular science blogs on the Internet: Pharyngula. He is also a prominent speaker at freethought and secular conferences around the world. The video below is his presentation at the Global Atheist Convention in Melbourne, Australia in April of 2012.
{video clipped out}
Dr. Myers is a strong advocate for excellence in science education and has recently been instrumental in securing a $1.2 million grant for UMM to support undergraduate research and improve science education in secondary schools.
Professor Myers is a fierce enemy of the encroachment of creationism into the public school science curriculum. His talk to LSF is titled "The evolution of creationism". Don't miss it!
Moose
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Add quote.

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 102 of 104 (673116)
09-14-2012 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Minnemooseus
09-13-2012 8:50 PM


Re: Bump and a plug - PZ Myers to be in Duluth, MN Sun. Oct. 7
I can't believe it's over 4 years since crackergate

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 103 of 104 (675213)
10-08-2012 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Minnemooseus
09-13-2012 8:50 PM


PZ Myers in Duluth, MN Sun. Oct. 7
A minor article in the Duluth News Tribune:
404: Page Not Found
No great revaluations, but a nice presentation. I talked to PZ quite a bit, including at a home after the meeting. Alas, I didn't quite make the photo - I was to PZ's immediate right when the following was taken.
Moose

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 104 of 104 (675218)
10-08-2012 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Minnemooseus
10-08-2012 1:41 PM


Re: PZ Myers in Duluth, MN Sun. Oct. 7
It's cool to see Buster Bluth hanging with PZ Myers. He got his hand back!
- Oni

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