GWB, the Nazis, the Commies, and Us.

From Message 34 of our current political thread. Thank you, Chi.Exactly the point I was going to make.I recently had the chance to see Naomi Wolf's talk re: her book The End of America.Here's Naomi's take on Germany in the early 30s and legal pressures on a democracy aka how despots crack down:Every would-be dictator, whether on the left or the right, does the same 9 things. There is a blue print for crushing a democracy.Each of these steps is underway in the United States today courtesy of G. W. Bush.1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external threat.2. Create a secret prison system where torture takes place that is outside the rule of law.3. Create a paramilitary force.4. Create a surveillance apparatus aimed at ordinary citizens.5. Target key individuals for punishment as a result of this surveillance.6. Arbitrarily detain and release citizens.7. Restrict the press.8. Re-cast criticism as treason.9. Subvert the rule of law.The same is true of Italy (pre-Mussolini), Russia (pre-Stalin), Czechlovakia (pre-Ceausescu), Chile (pre-Pinochet).GWB has only #9 left.GWB is a threat to our national security.What say you, EvC?Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

One could easily argue that all of these conditions have existed in US history to some extent in the South prior to the Civil War and during Reconstruction, and nationwide during the red scare of the early 1920s and 1950s.Also, slight correction, Ceauescu was Romanian, not Czechoslovakian.All the same I find recent events concerning the child-emperor and his lackeys quite disturbing, as everyone who supports the US Constitution should."Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty--power is ever stealing from the many to the few."Wendell Phillips
US abolitionist (1811 - 1884)-

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

That's what I get for trying to remember the country instead of looking it up. Here's my tally.South: 4/9
1920s/30s/50s: 6/9
GWB: 8/9The man's hitting on all cylinders.

IMO your tally, particularly regarding the South is way too low.See American Mobbing by David Grimstead. The reviews do not give it justice as to pre-Civil War suppression of the Bill of Rights in the South. Essentially the penalty for criticizing slavery was death.As to Reconstruction or even later, one must consider the tolerance and often even government support of such internal terrorist organizations as the KKK, the Mob, or hired strike-breaking goons. The references are beyond numerous.Just arguing for perspective. American history is not all sweetness and light by any means, including presumed rule by law.

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

may I also add Great Britain (1997-present) to the list. In particular, points 1,4,5,6,8 are very obvious, while 7 is not just limited to the press but to any free speech. 9 is more of a case of creating new generic, blanket-coverage laws that can be interpreted in any which way to suit current political climate.It's not just the US that's slowly crumbling under neo-fascism, but all US satellite nations too.

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"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

I would'nt say that we are crumbling just yet. Keep in mind, however, that Bush attempted to rig the elections last time around. It will be interesting if any imminent threat similar to 9-11 manifests itself before Bush steps out of power.That would certainly give rise to the legitimate questions of:

who manufactured the threat? (Hitler was good at that!)

Would the people stand for another rigged election?

I'll agree that this is happening The CIA's black prisons has not been for U.S citizens but only for "terroists" capturede abroad. Further more, these prisons are not located within the USA. What paramilitary forces do the US have within its own borders? Well this is happening. In the US as well as europe and many other countries. I cant find any instance of this happening. But ofcourse... they would cover it up. Again, i cant find any instance of this happening I cant say to what degree the press is actually beeing restricted.
They do plant stories in the news though. See 1. Somewhat happening Hasent happened (yet)Though it may seem that the US does fulfill a couple of points on the list, i dont think the USA heading towards true facism any time soon. In all these instances, there actually was secret police heading down citizens of the country, there was 'real' propaganda and so forth.What im trying to say is that the 9 points were practiced to the extreme, and that really isent happening in the US.They do alot of sh*t though.Edited by rbp, : No reason given.

But they weren't created by the federal government.They may have been ignored or even encouraged, but that's different. I agree.

Two words. Jose Padilla. Two words. Hurricane Katrina.Blackwater was immediately dispatched to New Orleans.One of GWB's signing statements says that he and he alone has the authority to dispatch the paramilitary (Blackwater, Sovereign Deed, etc.) in cases of "national emergency". And guess who gets to decide what constitutes a "national emergency"? Naomi Wolf is on the terrorist watch list. (Her boarding pass is always marked "SSSS" aka high terrorist risk.) Now why would that be?Richard Murphy (constitutional authority/Princeton scholar), Medea Benjamin/Jodie Evans/etc. (leaders of anti-war group Code Pink), the staff of War Times (anti-war newspaper), ACLU staffers, Greenpeace leaders, are also on the terrorist watch list.And who knows who else.I'll tell you this much.I posted an anti-Bush article (from the New Yorker) on a local bulletin board back in 2003.The next day the FBI showed up at my house. I was interrogated for nearly an hour until I demanded that they leave. Journalists have been detained in Iraq. Journalists are being threatened. http://www.dc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/55345Journalists are being targeted. Bienvenue sur le site de Reporters sans frontires | RSF Wrong. Bush Administration creates "Secret State Police" - Global ResearchGlobal Research - Centre for Research on Globalization I disagree.

I dont think thats enough to conclude that the CIA prison are for US citizens.. Just the fact that he traveled through the middle east and was captured on his way back to the US makes a huge difference.. No, it dosent make him guilty of anything, but it makes the case for this not beeing some random capture for political reasons. I would like to see a source on the GWB quote. Just for context and so forth.About blackwater and paramilitary forces, i guess ill have to give you that one.Except maybe we could call them mercenaries, but that wouldn't really make any difference. I would like to see a proper source on that.
Also, what onsequence it actually has for the people with marked passports. Do tell the story. [qs] Journalists are being targeted.
/qs Some of those stories are some heavy stuff, but the press is NOT beeing regulated like it was the case with Hitler, Mussolini, Kim Jon Il and those other real tyrant regimes. Wrong that it happened in the instances you mentioned? Or wrong that it does happen in the US?I havent really been able to find much information on this Secret Police. Please post links if you have.Can you mention anything performed by this secret police?Edited by rbp, : No reason given.

Padilla is a U.S. citizen. He was arrested in the U.S. He was held incommunicado for 3 years. http://www.harvardir.org/articles/1562/ Briefing Room - The White House Naomi Wolf herself.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWcAt 30:12. Passports aren't marked!You really don't know much about the Patriot Act, do you? We still enjoy the rule of law. For now. However, it is clear from history that erosion of a democracy proceeds via tipping points. Which means a gradual restrictions of civil liberties and civil rights ... then the situation hits a sweet spot ... and BOOM. You're done. You're toast.No more rights. No more liberties. Ferchrissake. Message 9. LOOK RIGHT HERE.Bush Administration creates "Secret State Police" - Global ResearchGlobal Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

But isn't that list flawed in the aspect that an large amount of the population is anti-Bush and the press is keeping the population at least somewhat informed about his behavior. Furthermore, for an dictatorship to occur, it would need the help of the army. That I find to be extremely unlikely. The Russians had an hard time shooting their people, what makes you think that the US military would do what the Commies couldn't?Plus many people have stopped listening to anything that comes out of that man's mouth an long time ago.

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But isn't that list flawed in the aspect that an large amount of the population is anti-Bush and the press is keeping the population at least somewhat informed about his behavior.....

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...Plus many people have stopped listening to anything that comes out of that man's mouth an long time ago.

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Bush isn't the problem (well he is, but not in that way), he's merely the opening act. While relatively few people support him anymore, a quick look through any right-wing conservative message board or blog will reveal that support for such things as the Patriot Act, as well as the secret prisons and warrantless wiretapping are still disturbingly widespread.So there's no way Bush will be the next Hitler, in fact we may not even see him/her for decades if at all. But what Bush has done is greased up the process. So when America forgets about Bush's horrible presidency and elects another neocon he/she/it (most likely the latter ) can take what Bush did a little farther. They'll subvert more checks and balances, institute even more easily abused laws, and make it far easier for the next one to take over. Continue this as many times as necessary and you have a fascist dictatorship ruling over a population completely acclimated to tyranny.God help us if the neocons find someone as charismatic and well spoken as Obama.

Milgram experiment - Wikipedia

Hi Molbiogirl,I found this to be an interesting take on your concept. Admittedly by a leftist group. G.W. BUSH- THE THIEF, THE LIAR - ANTI-WAR

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Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"