Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Indonesian Government Sets Deadline - Request for Details
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1 of 16 (176493)
01-13-2005 8:47 AM


I was watching CNN this morning. There was a brief item concerning a decision by the Government of Indonesia (GoI) to "order" all American relief workers and agencies out of Indonesia by March. CNN for once didn't comment on either the decision or its possible ramifications. Unfortunately, they also didn't provide many details beyond the bare announcement.
I'm hoping that one of our Indonesian posters can provide additional details on this decision.
I am aware of GoI concerns relative to the on-going Sumatran independence movement/low-level guerrilla insurgency. However, one of the practical aspects of concern was expressed by my wife (who, as a senior foriegn service officer with USAID, has a great deal of experience being involved with and leading international disaster relief and recovery efforts around the world): simply rebuilding basic infrastructure in Banda Aceh, for instance, will take a full-court press using every resource available for at least a year. If the GoI is concerned about foreign meddling in their insurgency, kicking out key players before the relief effort is completed would seem to provide the guerrillas with even more justification and recruits.
In addition, the possible political ramifications would appear extraordinary. Even I (and I consider myself relatively multiculturally-oriented and able to understand - even if I don't agree with them - other nations' sovereignty issues, etc), could come up with no more charitable phrase than "ungrateful" or "short-sighted" when considering this decision. To the average American, given the overwhelmingly generous private donations, not to mention government donations, that have been provided both to the region generally and Indonesia in particular, this is going to appear a major slap in the face and insult.
I'd appreciate any input bearing on the rationale for this decision on the part of the GoI.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-13-2005 11:33 AM Quetzal has replied
 Message 9 by MangyTiger, posted 01-13-2005 4:29 PM Quetzal has replied
 Message 12 by Syamsu, posted 01-14-2005 9:46 AM Quetzal has replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 2 of 16 (176531)
01-13-2005 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Quetzal
01-13-2005 8:47 AM


Did they not, until recently, march through their streets shouting 'death to America'?
It seems I read/heard that somewhere.
I wonder why we are there to begin with, helping those who want us dead?
A strange people we are, eh?
Your puzzlement is mine. Perhaps it has to do with their national mindset, which includes 'death to America' sentiments.
And then there are the innocent children

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Quetzal, posted 01-13-2005 8:47 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Quetzal, posted 01-13-2005 11:53 AM PecosGeorge has replied
 Message 8 by crashfrog, posted 01-13-2005 4:22 PM PecosGeorge has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 3 of 16 (176534)
01-13-2005 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by PecosGeorge
01-13-2005 11:33 AM


Thanks for your reply.
However, in the first place, this was not a spontaneous outpouring of anti-Americanism by the average Indonesian civilian along the lines of "we'd rather die than accept help from the infidel". It was a sudden decision by the GoI that in my opinion is extraordinarily short-sighted.
Secondly, there hasn't typically been a huge amount of ant-Americanism in Indonesia, even in light of the Iraq War. They actually seem to dislike the Australians more than us. Oh, there've been protests, but not anywhere near the scale of many other countries, especially in the Middle East. Indonesia has been a pretty tolerant Moslem nation in that sense.
Third, there have been travel restrictions on foreigners on Sumatra for years, again due to the insurgency. IIRC, foreigners need special permission to associate with locals, travel to remote regions, etc, and must be escorted at all times. I'm not sure if this applied to Banda Aceh itself, but it certainly did to the rest of the island. The ostensible reason was to avoid any possibility that foreigners were giving assistance to the insurgents.
However, you have nicely proven my point concerning American reaction to this decision.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-13-2005 11:33 AM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Abshalom, posted 01-13-2005 12:15 PM Quetzal has replied
 Message 5 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-13-2005 12:22 PM Quetzal has replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 16 (176540)
01-13-2005 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Quetzal
01-13-2005 11:53 AM


Quetzal: Could the Indonesian reaction have anything to do with the Islamic idea that once a nation or locality becomes Muslim, then in shall always remain Muslim land, and that its occupation, even temporarily, by armed forces of infidels is verboten?
By the way, and I can't remember which news service I viewed it on, there were interviews with locals where individual Indonesians were very reluctant to respond for fear of their government; but those who did said they welcomed U.S. aid and hoped for more tsunami relief from the West.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Quetzal, posted 01-13-2005 11:53 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Quetzal, posted 01-13-2005 4:11 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 5 of 16 (176544)
01-13-2005 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Quetzal
01-13-2005 11:53 AM


Oh, they dislike the Aussies more than us.
That is comforting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Quetzal, posted 01-13-2005 11:53 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Quetzal, posted 01-13-2005 4:13 PM PecosGeorge has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 6 of 16 (176619)
01-13-2005 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Abshalom
01-13-2005 12:15 PM


Quetzal: Could the Indonesian reaction have anything to do with the Islamic idea that once a nation or locality becomes Muslim, then in shall always remain Muslim land, and that its occupation, even temporarily, by armed forces of infidels is verboten?
Possibly, I suppose. However, Indonesian Moslems historically have been relatively friendly and their particular brand of Islam is an especially tolerant one. They tend to reserve (in the main) their dislike for internal, tribal issues and quasi-independence movements. Remember there are approx. 1700 different cultures speaking as many languagues contained in the nation of Indonesia. My speculation is that the government was more concerned with the insurgency (and possibly proselytizing by other religions) than they were with "infidels" per se.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Abshalom, posted 01-13-2005 12:15 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 7 of 16 (176621)
01-13-2005 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by PecosGeorge
01-13-2005 12:22 PM


Heh. Still, sometimes it's nice not to be #1 on everybody's hate list, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-13-2005 12:22 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-14-2005 12:23 PM Quetzal has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 8 of 16 (176627)
01-13-2005 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by PecosGeorge
01-13-2005 11:33 AM


I wonder why we are there to begin with, helping those who want us dead?
quote:
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
You don't have to believe that the Bible was written by God to see the sense in that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-13-2005 11:33 AM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-14-2005 12:46 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 9 of 16 (176630)
01-13-2005 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Quetzal
01-13-2005 8:47 AM


Only troops leaving ?
This was reported differently over here. The BBC reported that foreign troops will have to leave in three months - nothing about other aid workers (beyond the previous announcement that they had to register travel plans with the government etc.).

Confused ? You will be...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Quetzal, posted 01-13-2005 8:47 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Quetzal, posted 01-13-2005 5:35 PM MangyTiger has not replied
 Message 11 by Quetzal, posted 01-14-2005 8:49 AM MangyTiger has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 10 of 16 (176655)
01-13-2005 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by MangyTiger
01-13-2005 4:29 PM


Re: Only troops leaving ?
That's interesting, CNN made it sound like everybody was ordered out. My wife sits on the management panel for the USG Tsunami Task Force - I'll see what I can weasel out of her tonight (the closed-lipped so-and-so).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by MangyTiger, posted 01-13-2005 4:29 PM MangyTiger has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 11 of 16 (176919)
01-14-2005 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by MangyTiger
01-13-2005 4:29 PM


Re: Only troops leaving ?
Hey, MT.
I managed to pin down the lady last evening. Apparently the BBC broadcast had it closer than CNN: it was just military forces which were being ordered out. Which makes sense - the GoI no matter how tolerant, is not going to be really comfortable about a US military presence at this time.
Interestingly enough, it appears that the GoI has tightened up the existing travel restrictions - all foreign aid workers must be registered, all travel up-country approved, and all movement (say, to deliver supplies) must be escorted by the Indonesian military - which is not a good thing. I haven't heard what the US gov reaction is going to be, but I presume acquiescence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by MangyTiger, posted 01-13-2005 4:29 PM MangyTiger has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 12 of 16 (176938)
01-14-2005 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Quetzal
01-13-2005 8:47 AM


I think this more has to do with eliminating the possibility of that frightening prospect of... AN INTERNATIONAL INCIDENT. When a foreigner get's into trouble in Indonesia, it creates AN INTERNATIONAL INCIDENT. Nothing is so scary to Indonesian politicians as AN INTERNATIONAL INCIDENT.
So I think this decision just reflects the fragility of Indonesian politics, which can easily be set into turmoil and overwork by AN INTERNATIONAL INCIDENT.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Quetzal, posted 01-13-2005 8:47 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Quetzal, posted 01-14-2005 9:56 AM Syamsu has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 13 of 16 (176944)
01-14-2005 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Syamsu
01-14-2005 9:46 AM


Thanks Syamasu. I wasn't aware the GoI was that exercised about danger to foreign workers. The decision could make sense in that context, although I think it remains a difficult one to justify considering the needs of the victims. Eliminating the foreign military presence does make sense in the context of avoiding incidents, however.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Syamsu, posted 01-14-2005 9:46 AM Syamsu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Abshalom, posted 01-14-2005 2:23 PM Quetzal has not replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 14 of 16 (176997)
01-14-2005 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Quetzal
01-13-2005 4:13 PM


We are just too wonderful to love.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Quetzal, posted 01-13-2005 4:13 PM Quetzal has not replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 15 of 16 (177009)
01-14-2005 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by crashfrog
01-13-2005 4:22 PM


Does this apply in a political setting? After all, we are not a Christian nation and politics and religion are separate.
Also, if you were to present them with these sentiments, would they understand?
I believe their mandate is to kill those who disagree with them and refuse to convert, it would hardly be logical to offer them the opportunity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by crashfrog, posted 01-13-2005 4:22 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024