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Author Topic:   Devising the best taxation
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 16 of 70 (439615)
12-09-2007 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Buzsaw
12-09-2007 2:41 PM


Re: Fixing the system
Buzsaw writes:
They invest it in stocks, bonds, IRAs etc...
In other words, they invest it in American businesses.
... and retire with ever expansive benefits wintering in Florida, Hawaii....
The last I checked, Florida and Hawaii were still part of the US, so much of that money stays in the US economy.
... and squandering it in the casinos...
American casinos employing thousands of Americans?
... doling it out to other well to doer fat cats who couldn't care less about my county's wrecked economy.
My point is that high taxes aren't to blame for wrecking your economy. Most of the money stays in the economy.
A lot of countries with higher taxes have healthier economies. I can see one of them from here.
Edited by Ringo, : Splling.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2007 2:41 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2007 9:59 AM ringo has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 17 of 70 (439616)
12-09-2007 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
12-09-2007 2:10 PM


Re: If I Were President
So you think that the entire country would function best if the federal government set the tax rate for every town, city, county and state in the nation, that rate being the same for every town, city, county and state?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 18 of 70 (439626)
12-09-2007 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 1:11 PM


Re: Fixing the system
Any time a government taxes the hell out of you unnecessarily, makes it so that the people cannot pour money that should be going in to the economy.
Is that a failure of the IRS? They don't set tax rates. They collect taxes. Seems like they've been succeeding in doing that, unless you're a corporation these days.
We now have approximately a 40% compulsive tax which is higher or the equivalent to most socialist nations.
There are no socialist nations. Not on Planet Earth, anyway. Not sure where you're living these days, honestly.
There is talk that there is no such income tax on the books.
"On the books"? It's on the Constitution, NJ. A great document. Maybe you could read it and its amendments, sometime?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 1:11 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Silent H, posted 12-09-2007 4:41 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 19 of 70 (439635)
12-09-2007 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by crashfrog
12-09-2007 3:52 PM


Re: Fixing the system
There are no socialist nations.
Just to let you know, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark are all proud socialist nations. Netherlands used to be until a few years ago.
NJ is correct that they have very high taxes. The difference is that while we are close to paying the same amount in the US, they actually get service for their taxes. They don't end up having to pay for health or education as we have to. This is something conservatives in the US never figure into the equation.
Socialism is cheaper in the end, so despite getting taxed heavily, it has no impact on their livelihood. They live exceedingly well.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2007 3:52 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2007 5:44 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 20 of 70 (439636)
12-09-2007 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 2:09 AM


"Fair Tax" is no such thing...
My preferred system of taxation would be a flat tax, or a very simply graded progressive tax, with no exemptions.
It would be solely individual (so no joint filing), start at an income level well beyond the minimum necessary to live a decent life, and be somewhat larger than current levels (to make up for losses in taxation at lower levels).
The fair tax is not a fair tax, and it is not even a practical system as currently proposed. By taxing purchases, the debt of the gov't is shifted most directly on the poorest. Even middle income brackets will pay a greater % of their salaries in taxes than the more affluent. That makes no sense at all.
I mean where does the name "fair" even come from, in that regard?
According to the current bill, and I guess recent proponents, a rebate will be given to those who are poor, to pay the increased taxation they will now be under.
This of course means we will still need an IRS. Some organization will have to collect and review INCOME in order to determine the amount or necessity of a rebate... and find those who are cheating on their reports.
Now this is the clever part. Right now people of low income do not have to file, and rich people do. This scheme makes it necessary for poor people to file, and lifts the obligation on rich people to do so.
The so-called "fair tax" is a system by rich people, for rich people. Pushing all obligations and debts on those without.
Edited by Silent H, : sub title

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 2:09 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 12-09-2007 5:17 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 42 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 9:11 PM Silent H has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 70 (439642)
12-09-2007 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Silent H
12-09-2007 4:54 PM


Re: "Fair Tax" is no such thing...
It does have the advantage of making the US a desirable place for foreign corporations to exploit. By removing all taxation on the corporations, foreign companies can locate here and export all profits abroad tax free. It is also a great way to rape and plunder the Social Security system and abandon all obligations due to those in the system.
Further, since there is no requirement for manufacturers to roll back their prices to exclude any current tax burden, it will provide a onetime windfall of about 30% of the GDP to Corporate America.
The rich can continue to purchase whatever they want, but will simply purchase outside the US.
Sounds like a great plan to me.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Silent H, posted 12-09-2007 4:54 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Silent H, posted 12-09-2007 5:39 PM jar has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 22 of 70 (439646)
12-09-2007 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
12-09-2007 5:17 PM


Re: "Fair Tax" is no such thing...
Heheheh... actually I hadn't thought much about the corporate implications. So small business corporations would likely have to file more tax papers and pay more taxes (% wise), and huge corporations can skip it and pay much less.
Or will big companies, because they need to buy so many things (assuming they stay inside the US), get rebates just like poor people? This would of course be similar to the corporate welfare system we already have. Would that be avoided in the new tax system? Bet not.
Anyway, seems to be getting fairer all the time.
The rich can continue to purchase whatever they want, but will simply purchase outside the US.
Well, I suppose that's where it will all be made soon anyway.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 12-09-2007 5:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 12-09-2007 5:51 PM Silent H has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 23 of 70 (439648)
12-09-2007 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Silent H
12-09-2007 4:41 PM


Re: Fixing the system
Just to let you know, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark are all proud socialist nations.
Maybe we're operating from two different definitions of the term "socialist."
I'm not saying that those nations don't have well-developed public services - they do and we should emulate them here - but it's only under the ridiculous redefinitions of conservatives that those nations could be considered "socialist."
Socialism is:
quote:
a broad array of ideologies and political movements with the goal of a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community for the purposes of increasing social and economic equality and cooperation.
Sweden, Norway, and Denmark are capitalist nations that include socialist programs in their government. Unless I'm very much mistaken, citizens of Sweded, Norway, and Denmark work for private companies, own private property and real estate, and run and own their own businesses, like in the US.
That's capitalism. I'm no sociologist but it has to be obvious that those nations are not socialist in the sense of the term NJ was using.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Silent H, posted 12-09-2007 4:41 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Silent H, posted 12-09-2007 6:01 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 26 by Chiroptera, posted 12-09-2007 6:03 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 70 (439649)
12-09-2007 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Silent H
12-09-2007 5:39 PM


Re: "Fair Tax" is no such thing...
Silent H writes:
Or will big companies, because they need to buy so many things (assuming they stay inside the US), get rebates just like poor people?
The tax is only on retail sales. From Nem's own source:
Exports and the purchase of intermediate business sales would not be taxed, nor would savings, investments, or education tuition expenses as they would be considered an investment (rather than final consumption).
However...
Personal services such as health care, legal services, financial services, haircuts, and auto repairs would be subject to the FairTax, as would renting apartments and other real property.
So it is a complete rape of the US citizen and about the biggest windfall ever seen by business.
Silent H writes:
Well, I suppose that's where it will all be made soon anyway.
Nah, made here, exported tax free and then purchased overseas.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Silent H, posted 12-09-2007 5:39 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Silent H, posted 12-09-2007 6:09 PM jar has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 25 of 70 (439650)
12-09-2007 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by crashfrog
12-09-2007 5:44 PM


Re: Fixing the system
To be fair to your point, the definition of what counts as a socialist nation is blurred. And many conservatives love to take advantage of that, painting anything close to a socialist program, as an institution of Stalinist totalitarianism.
To be fair to NJ, I thought his context was clear, especially as he accurately described their tax rate. He appeared to be referring to the Scandinavian countries.
To be fair to me, people of those nations refer to themselves and their gov't as socialist. And indeed they do fulfill the definition you posted. Wealth and property are most certainly open to control by the community, and are adjusted for the purpose of increasing economic equality and cooperation.
Yes their citizens can and do work for, or own, private companies. That is not excluded by the definition of socialism. They have seemingly found that the gov't doesn't have to directly own or manage everything all the time in order to produce the results desired. But they certainly have greater ability to step in and effect businesses than we have here in the US. And if I remember right their markets are directly controlled by their gov'ts.
As far as property goes, ownership is an interesting question. Communities have greater control over how you use, or if you will continue to own, your property. In some cases your "property" isn't yours at all. For example in Sweden, people have the right to camp out on anyone's property without even having to ask permission.
I'm not sure if you've ever been there, but I highly recommend it. The differences are quite exciting.
Actually, if you rent the DVD of Sicko (which is a great movie), Moore provides a "special feature" of his trip to Norway. He explains that for those who thought France was something, they should check it out. Socialist concepts run straight throughout it, and effect how everything is treated.
Yet as NJ said, they get taxed quite a bit. So what? I ask.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2007 5:44 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2007 6:32 PM Silent H has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 70 (439651)
12-09-2007 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by crashfrog
12-09-2007 5:44 PM


Re: Fixing the system
Maybe we're operating from two different definitions of the term "socialist."
Indeed. I often see "socialism" used to refer to the Scandinavian countries, although the proper term, I believe, is "Social Democracy".
Since I consider myself to be a socialist in the "true" (that is, your) definition, I'm also not too happy about it.
Edited by Chiroptera, : Oops! Edited the link, but forgot to remove a reference to the first link.

If it's truly good and powerful, it deserves to engender a thousand misunderstandings. -- Ben Ratcliffe

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 27 of 70 (439656)
12-09-2007 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
12-09-2007 5:51 PM


Re: "Fair Tax" is no such thing...
Good gods... I missed that part. Or maybe my mind just wanted to block it out.
So it is a complete rape of the US citizen and about the biggest windfall ever seen by business.
Yes. And in the spirit of naming things accurately, perhaps this "fair" tax should be renamed.
Rape Tax sounds good to me. Those that are already getting screwed by the system, get taxed more for good measure.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 12-09-2007 5:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 70 (439657)
12-09-2007 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
12-09-2007 2:10 PM


Re: If I Were President
Thanks for the reply. This is the spirit I was looking for in the OP. Great job. I hope more will follow suit.
1. Eliminate the Fed Reserve System.
Agreed.
2. Reinstate the creation of money to Congress.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Can you expound?
3. Present a Constitutional Amendment to abolish all current taxes at all levels of government and outlaw deficite spending at all levels of government.
Agreed.
4. Depreciate the American $ via issuance of enough $ to pay off all government debt and simultaneously outlaw any future debt spending, period at all levels of government.
I think the value of the US dollar has depreciated enough to where more and more nations are switching to Euro's. However, under the Fair Tax, I believe that it will eat up the debt.
5. Impose a head tax at the lowest local level of government upon all able citizens over age 20.
I'm not familiar with this term. Can you expound?
6. Only citizens who were unable to pay the head tax would file a return requesting exemption from the tax.
Under the Fair Tax you wouldn't have to file anything ever again. Its solely driven by revenue made by the economy. As it is, Americans pay up to 40% of their revenue to the government through Federal income taxes, as well as paying for sales tax. The goods we purchase is taxed twice. Why? Because companies don't pay their taxes. Instead, they imbed what they owe in to the cost of a product. So we essentially pay their taxes for them, plus our own.
As it is currently, goods imported are not taxed in the same way that American manufacturers are required to pay. That means American companies lose in competition because their products are generally more expensive.
Going to a Fair Tax would eliminate the middle man. Americans can enjoy an entire paycheck. That paycheck would be dumped back in to the economy. Under the current system, poor and middle class citizens, after taxes, generally can only really afford the basic amenities.
If we had more of our own money to play with, the economy goes up exponentially. Its good for the government and its good for the average citizen.
6. Reduce the IRS to what sould be needful to process head tax exemption requests.
Agreed. The only real need of the IRS, or some derivation of it, is to account for the money and to allocate it properly. Beyond that they serve no function.
The way the head tax would work:
1. All citizens pay a given amount to the lowest level of government, such as village, township, county, etc.
2. The lowest level keeps a given percentage (to be established uniformly over the nation) and forwards the remainder to the next level up and so on until a percentage of all taxes eventually reach the federal level.
But even this is complicating things unnecessarily. Ever wonder why we have to pay a Federal Income Tax only to get that money right back at a later date after taxes are filed? Why the complication? Why not just pay a flat tax that will inevitably make more GDP than what we currently see?

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2007 2:10 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Silent H, posted 12-09-2007 6:32 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 29 of 70 (439660)
12-09-2007 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Chiroptera
12-09-2007 6:03 PM


Re: Fixing the system
I'll quote the opening part of your cite as it helps break down any misunderstandings in terminology...
Social democracy is a political ideology that emerged in the late 19th century out of the socialist movement.[1] Modern social democracy is unlike socialism in the traditional sense which aims to end the predominance of the capitalist system, or in the Marxist sense which aims to to replace it entirely; instead, social democrats aim to reform capitalism democratically through state regulation and the creation of state sponsored programs and organizations which work to ameliorate or remove injustices inflicted by the capitalist market system. The term itself is also used to refer to the particular kind of society that social democrats advocate. While some consider social democracy a moderate type of socialism, others, defining socialism in the traditional or Marxist sense, reject that designation.
I consider myself a socialist, and a product of the socialist movement. Clearly I would fit the bill of social democrat, though I actually have no hard ideological need for sticking with capitalism per se. I do think on a practical level capitalist elements are extremely useful for many day to day affairs... especially in maintaining/advancing individual rights... though I would admit not wholly necessary.
So I suppose I am not a "traditional" and definitely not a "Marxist" socialist. Does that make me not a socialist? I think its a bit of stretched semantics to say I am not. And it seems odd to claim that millions of people over many nations are confused about who they actually are. If they say they are socialist, but don't fill all of the traditional aspects, then aren't they just a form of it?
Kind of like all the different types of Xians, and Muslims, and Atheists, and feminists. They have similar goals, and some core beliefs, but some differentiation.
In any case, I think its safe for NJ to call them socialist in the context he was using it.
What do you feel is the largest difference between Scandinavian socialism and "true" socialism. Their intent and practices seem identical to crash's posted def... just not that it is all state owned all of the time. It is however, when necessary.
Edited by Silent H, : clarity on my position regarding capitalist elements within socialist models of gov't.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Chiroptera, posted 12-09-2007 6:03 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Chiroptera, posted 12-09-2007 7:03 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 30 of 70 (439665)
12-09-2007 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 6:17 PM


Re: If I Were President
I hope that you will see my initial post to you was in the fashion you had hoped. However, in addition to describing my preferred tax system, I did stick it to the Fair Tax... which is really a gross misnomer in my opinion. And I will address one of the issues right here...
Under the Fair Tax you wouldn't have to file anything ever again.
That is not true, and directly contradicted by your source. What is true is that the RICH will never have to file anything ever again. Anyone who will be effected by the increased daily taxation on simply living, will have to file as usual... and in some cases beyond the usual... to prove their income.
If it is going to be a fair tax, perhaps it should only be levied on luxury goods... purely entertainment... with prices above what those who are poor could reasonably afford. So no taxes on anything required to live, and up to say $10K on any luxury item.
That way the poor would not need rebates, and so would also not need to file their incomes.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 6:17 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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