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Author Topic:   Gorilla strength
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 211 of 287 (331109)
07-12-2006 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by psaghafi
07-12-2006 9:24 AM


Re: Gorillas and Neanderthals...
Hey dude
That's what I was getting across to jakethesnake: although Gorilla skulls are like human skulls, they show some major differences.
psaghafi writes:
If you dont by this argument then youre being stubborn.
I didn't think I was being stubborn. Sorry if I was. Were you meaning me or Jakethesnake?
That is strange that there is more scientitifc evidence about the strength of Neanderthals than there is about Silverback Gorillas. I wonder if anybody has done a test of the cross sectional structure of a Gorilla's bones. That would be useful in determining a Gorilla's strength.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by psaghafi, posted 07-12-2006 9:24 AM psaghafi has replied

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 287 (331110)
07-12-2006 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by LudoRephaim
07-12-2006 10:49 AM


Re: Gorillas and Neanderthals...
I was referring to Jake, not you, my friend. You made it very clear that the gorilla skull and human skull are not identical. On this point I certainly agree with you. Sorry for the confusion.
Jake makes a lot of good points, and his arguments are interesting and intelligent. However, my honest feeling is that a few of his arguments are based on his deep respect for human athleticism, not reality. I think it's cool to stand up for people, because we are quite special and unique, but I believe our potential IS limited in certain fields. Anecdotal reports of humans doing well in combat with animals are biased and misleading. People lie, exaggerate and stack the odds in their favor to color reality.
No offense Jake, but writings by Gene Tunney are not convincing. Gene Tunney was a great boxer in his day, and a scientific thinker, but in those days boxers also thought that boxing was the most effective form of fighting. Boxers thought this not because it was true, but because they wanted to believe it, and it bolstered their position in society.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by LudoRephaim, posted 07-12-2006 10:49 AM LudoRephaim has not replied

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 213 of 287 (331111)
07-12-2006 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by psaghafi
07-12-2006 11:08 AM


Re: Gorillas and Neanderthals...
Certainly the cross-sectional area of a gorillas bones are far larger than a humans.
Even their pelvic area has extremely large bones.
I still can't believe that Casey the gorilla could jump as far as I saw him jump.
I also just read online that someone claimed to have saw him jump 6 feet up in the air and kick the glass at the Como Zoo. (The glass is actually slightly cracked. You can see the crack when you visit the indoor enclosure!)
You can see a picture of Casey and the statement that he could jump 6 feet high here: http://www.geocities.com/...is/5579/week3livingprimates.html
You may have to click on the cached version of the web site to see it:
casey gorilla 6 feet - Google Search
Click the cached version of the second web site listed.
Again, this is conjecture, not a scientific measurement, but it does remind us that gorillas have better leaping ability than we think.
P
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.

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 Message 215 by LudoRephaim, posted 07-12-2006 12:41 PM psaghafi has replied

  
psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 287 (331117)
07-12-2006 11:46 AM


Casey the grasshopper Gorilla
HEHE. Not much fat on that dude.

Replies to this message:
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 215 of 287 (331132)
07-12-2006 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by psaghafi
07-12-2006 11:18 AM


I didn't know they could jump vertically like that, let alone at such height! Suddenly the jumping prowess of weight lifters dont seem so spectacular anymore.
Thanks for the links dude there is another link below the second one you posted which talks about muscular strongmen. It's interesting to, but Casey would lay the smackdown on'em!

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by psaghafi, posted 07-12-2006 11:18 AM psaghafi has replied

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 216 of 287 (331133)
07-12-2006 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by psaghafi
07-12-2006 11:46 AM


Re: Casey the grasshopper Gorilla
i'd hate to meet him in a dark alley!
BTW: I'm not sure if you talked about it earlier, but based on the Gorillas and Bears body build and morphology/physiology, which do you think is "stronger"; Gorilla or a Bear of the same size (Grizzly, American or asian Blackbear, Giant Panda...)?

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 287 (331145)
07-12-2006 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by LudoRephaim
07-12-2006 12:41 PM


Vertical height...
Yes, as I indicated, my theory is that most of the power is generated by the lower back and hip thrust. The enormous pelvic region of a gorilla is far superior to a human. The upper body then follows through in a spring-like motion. When I witnessed Casey jump length-wise I believe this was evident and I assume it'd be similar if he jumped height-wise.
We are used to thinking of leaping in terms of calf and upper leg power, but that applies to humans.
Gorillas other than Casey have escaped enclosures (requiring leaping ability) and absolutely boggled the minds of scientists.
Now all I need is for a gorilla to press 2,000 lbs. over his head and totally negate every supposedly logical argument I've made against their ability to do such a thing. What if the gorilla has some mechanical way of adjusting and negating its mechanical weaknesses? I still think that such a feat would probably be impossible due to the biomechanics of the gorilla and the way muscles are organized and designed. However, perhaps I should be more humble and go back to what I originally believed, "I have no clue what these animals can or cannot do until I see something with my own eyes". Perhaps that's the best conclusion I can draw.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 218 of 287 (331150)
07-12-2006 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by psaghafi
07-12-2006 12:59 PM


Bears vs. gorillas
I can't answer that question very well because the morphology of gorillas is so different than bears.
I'd really have to analyze very closely to figure it out, and I haven't done that.
My answer would be filled with too much guessing right now. I will give you a couple of comments though.
I do think that gorillas are perhaps the strongest large mammal on the planet when it comes to brute arm PULLING, RIPPING and SQUEEZING strength. Their arms and shoulders are clearly the best designed for that.
I think grizzly bears are perhaps the most powerful large mammal on the planet when it comes to swiping with the paw-- kind of like a club. Their forelegs are designed for that.
P
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.

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 Message 217 by psaghafi, posted 07-12-2006 12:59 PM psaghafi has not replied

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 219 of 287 (331472)
07-13-2006 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by psaghafi
07-12-2006 1:11 PM


Good answer
That is a very good answer. Best I've heared on that particular subject.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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bcw3
Inactive Member


Message 220 of 287 (333456)
07-19-2006 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by LudoRephaim
07-13-2006 11:50 AM


Re: Good answer
As soon as Gargantua felt pain his reaction would be to rush in furiously. A good fighter would side step, swing a right to the jaw and Gargantua would be hearing the birdies sing. Any animal who has a brain, a nervous system and a spinal cord, can be knocked out.
lol this is moronic a human kill any animal, lol you think a human can kill a bull elephant, bull hippo, bull white rhino, if you do then you are mentally retarded, i dont care about the strongest body builders best japanese martial arts fighters, they stand no chance vs a bull elephant, bull hippo, bull white rhino, and if you believe that the japanese guy who killed the bulls can kill a hippo white rhino and an elephant, then you are seriously mentally retarded
ps a grizzly bear would slaughter ANY MARTIAL ARTS FIGHTER WEIGHT LIFTER in seconds, maybe that japenese guy who killed bulls can give a lion or tiger a run for their money, however most of the time the lion or tiger would win, but a grizzly bear is out of the question he would slaughter ANY human in seconds, also ps grizzly bears fought bulls in calfornia and they always won, one bear called the great calfornian killed 4 bulls in a row now thats power.
lol i want to see that japanese martial arts guy who killed bulls, fight a bull elephant, hippo , white rhino lol he would be slaughtered so fast he wouldnt even know it, no human can even come close to an elephant rhino or hippo or grizzly bear any human would lose in seconds
Edited by bcw3, : mis spelled a word
Edited by bcw3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by LudoRephaim, posted 07-13-2006 11:50 AM LudoRephaim has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by jakethesnake6901, posted 07-20-2006 10:16 PM bcw3 has replied
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jakethesnake6901
Inactive Member


Message 221 of 287 (333856)
07-20-2006 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by bcw3
07-19-2006 5:03 PM


Re: Good answer
No I agree with you in that humans have just about 100% chance of losing to animals such as elephants, hippos, and grizzlies. My argument was, and has been that human being a part of the great apes has chance to win against other great apes bare-handed using wits and fighting techniques utilitizing higher intelligence. I also said these individuals would be extremely highly trained both mentally and physically in especially fighting certain apes (ie. gorilla). And also only "a very gifted few". I still believe it is possible after seeing Mas Oyama in videos and seeing some of die hards out there. One of examples I used was how 350 pound roid head with a six pack, Bob Sapp lost to a 200 pound Mirko CroCop when he got kicked in the liver. And as for elephants, hippos, rhinos, grizzlies, I agree with you, no chance. This Lude guy however thinks there is no way a human can beat a gorilla, not even a slight chance. I know there are people who agrees with him, but I know people who agrees with me in that humans do have a chance provided that person is gifted and highly trained. Like I said before I believe if people got paid 28 million dollars a year(ie. Alex Rodrigquez) to fight animals, you would see a legion of animal fighters. The article I posted before was just to support that people do concur with me. Is it that far fetched to say that some humans have a chance against a average gorilla when some humans can out bench press a average gorilla? (ie. record of 1100pound bench press). And no Im not retarded, I have a bachelor of science degree in computer science and scored 145 in a IQ test.
Edited by jakethesnake6901, : No reason given.
Edited by jakethesnake6901, : No reason given.
Edited by jakethesnake6901, : No reason given.
Edited by jakethesnake6901, : No reason given.

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bcw3
Inactive Member


Message 222 of 287 (333873)
07-20-2006 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by jakethesnake6901
07-20-2006 10:16 PM


Re: Good answer
now that u put it that way i sorta agree wit you

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johhno
Inactive Member


Message 223 of 287 (349230)
09-15-2006 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by LudoRephaim
06-10-2006 5:35 PM


Re: ultimate critter
Although I am not particularly interested in the bear vs bull topic which has developed on this forum, I want to comment on it due to the number of factual errors that have crept into various postings. Firstly, some of the weights of bears mentioned on this forum are totally incorrect. Hunters' tales and folklore have been responsible for much of this misinformation which has then found its way into popular literature. As one authority noted, the largest bears are always shot in areas without accurate scales (hardly surprising...) According to official zoological sources, these are the average/ range/highest weights of bears as below (nb. some of the highest weights are estimates rather than official records)
American Black Bear...250 ..... 125-600..... 803
Brown Bear ... 725 ..... 500-900 .....2,500+ ?
Grizzly Bear ... 490 ..... 350-700 .....1,100 / 1,496 ?
Polar Bear ... 1,150 ..... 900-1,500 ..... 2,210
The average weights of the American grizzly bear is 490 lbs with a maximum 'offical' recorded weight of either 1,100 lb or 1496 lb depending on which authority one accepts. Brown bears of the Russian far east are the world's largest bears along with Kodiac bears (now actually extinct on Kodiac Island). These bears may get somewhat larger than grizzlies, with a length of up to 10 ft. But even very large bears are hunted and eaten by Amur tigers and as has been no doubt mentioned, a good portion of the Amur tiger's diet is comprised of brown bear. The tiger is always placed at the top of the food pyramid in all habitats where it occurs because it is not predated upon by other animals.
Secondly, NONE of the sources on Californian grizzly bear fights that I've read (and I've seen quite a few) state that the bear was always the victor in such conflicts. In most cases of bear vs bull, both animals died during the conflict. One particular bear was proficient at fighting bulls but had been a known predator of cattle for many years. The bulls often killed the bears by throwing or goring them and apparently when a mountain lion was pitted against a grizzly, the lion won (many of you may have seen the video clip of a mountain lion with cubs seeing off a grizzly bear three times its own size). The bulls were further hindered by having their legs shackled (sometimes to that of the bear) which would surely disadvantage any ungulate moreso than it would the predator. Jackasses were also pitted against grizzlies later on in the piece. Below are some excerpts from period commentaries on capturing grizzlies and of pit fights. Makes for gory reading and is also rather tragic given the subsequent wiping out of the Californian grizzly.
"Every Mission and ranch in old times had its calaveras, its “place of skulls,” its slaughter corral, where cattle and sheep were killed by the Indian butchers Every Saturday morning the fattest animals were chosen and driven there, and by night the hides were all stretched on the hillside to dry. At one time a hundred cattle and two hundred sheep were killed weekly at the Mission San José, and the meat was distributed to all, “without money and without price.” The grizzly bears, which were very abundant in the country, ” for no one ever poisoned them, as the American stock raisers did after 1849, ” used to come by night to the ravines near the slaughter-corral where the refuse was thrown by the butchers. The young Spanish gentlemen often rode out on moonlight nights to lasso these bears, and then they would drag them through the village street, and past the houses of their friends. Two men with their strong rawhide reatas could hold any bear, and when they were tired of this sport they could kill him. But sometimes the bears would walk through the village on their way to or from the corral of the butchers, and so scatter the people. Several times a serenade party, singing and playing by moonlight, was suddenly broken up by two or three grizzlies trotting down the hill into the street, and the gay caballeros with their guitars would spring over the adobe walls and run for their horses, which always stood saddled, with a reata coiled, ready for use, as a saddle bow. It was the custom in every family to keep saddled horses in easy reach, day and night.
Innumerable stories about grizzlies are traditional in the old Spanish families, not only in the Santa Clara Valley, but also through the Coast Range from San Diego to Sonoma and Santa Rosa. Some of the bravest of the young men would go out alone to kill grizzlies. When they had lassoed one they would drag him to a tree, and the well-trained horse would hold the bear against it while the hunter slipped out of the saddle, ran up, and killed the grizzly with one stroke of his broad-bladed machete, or Mexican hunting knife. One Spanish gentlemen riding after a large grizzly lassoed it and was dragged into a deep barranca. Horse and man fell on the bear, and astonished him so much that he scrambled up the bank, and the hunter cut the reata and gladly enough let him go. There were many cases of herdsmen and hunters being killed by grizzlies, and one could fill a volume with stories of feats of courage and of mastery of the reata. The governor of California appointed expert bear hunters in different parts of the country, who spent their time in destroying them, by pits, or shooting, or with the reata. Don Rafael Soto, one of the most famous of these men used to conceal himself in a pit, covered with heavy logs and leaves, with a quarter of freshly killed beef above. When the grizzly bear walked on the logs he was shot from beneath. Before the feast- days the hunters sometimes went to the foothills and brought several bears to turn into the bull-fighting corral, The principal bull- fights were held at Easter and on the day of the patron saint of the Mission, which at the Mission San José was March 19. Young gentlemen who had trained for the contest entered the ring on foot and on horseback, after the Mexican manner. In the bull and bear fights a hind foot of the bear was often tied to the forefoot of the bull, to equalize the struggle, for a large grizzly was more than a match for the fiercest bull in California, or indeed of any other country. Bull and bear fights continued as late as 1855. The Indians were the most ardent supporters of this cruel sport."
And further:
"The bulls used for fighting were not the modern-day domestic type. ?Sharp of horn? and ?quick of foot,? these Spanish bulls possessed notoriously bad tempers and ?a charge like that of a catapult.? Attached at the leg by a leather cord about twenty yards long and penned in at close range, the two wild beasts had no choice but to face off. The fights were, as can be imagined, quite gory and certainly sated the bloodlust in even the most masochistic of audiences. Although matches were reported to have lasted up to two hours, things generally ended quickly, especially when the bear grabbed hold of the bull?s Achilles? heel?its tongue. One attendee recalled the horror of a fight?s final moments as the bear, ?its entrails dragging, ripped off the tongue, the ears, and much of the lower jaw of the bull.? If a bull triumphed, his victory usually came early in the tournament if he got lucky enough to ?plunge his long, curving horns in to the bear?s body, toss his adversary high into the air, and then gore him to death as the bear lay prostrate on the ground.? More often than not, however, both animals succumbed to their wounds."
Finally:
Onlookers too were at risk of injury. Bears or bulls, finding themselves free from their opponents when their restraints were somehow severed in battle, often ?forgot their differences? and fled, smashing and swiping their way through the audience in a desperate bid for freedom. A particularly determined bear ran pell-mell through the streets of San Francisco before clambering up the belltower of the Mission Dolores. So ensconced, the incensed bear held capturers at bay for several hours and alarmed the town with repeated clanging of the bell.
There were numerous variations in the contest. Denizens of Big Sur trapped a mountain lion and set it loose on a bear. The big cat won.
Nevada City residents had the grand idea of pitting a grizzly against a ?champion fighting jackass,? opening the gates to dozens of bear versus donkey matches throughout the state. ?If the bear was a real grizzly, he always won,? wrote one reporter, ?But the burro would worry him desperately for a long time. The bear would suffer tremendous jolts on the jaw from the burro?s heels, that would send him staggering back time and again.? Then the burro would latch on with its teeth until in its fury ?the angry bear bit the donkey?s leg off or bit his head ? As state became more civilized, bear and bull fights were outlawed. ?The pleasure a set of civilized beings can find in witnessing the forced conflict of animals,? wrote a reporter for a Bay Area newspaper.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by LudoRephaim, posted 06-10-2006 5:35 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

  
djrobins
Inactive Member


Message 224 of 287 (357164)
10-17-2006 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by bcw3
07-01-2006 10:37 AM


Re: Body structure comparison
Deal is they were compared about powerlifters.
The deal is this.
I believe while it might be hard to get a 450LB gorilla to benchpress,
we can get it to deadlift.
Current deadlift is just under 1000Lb. I'd wager the gorilla hand gripping strength is 4-6 x greater than a human being.
How much you think a 450Lb ferocious gorilla could deadlift? I'd wager over 2000LB the first attempt.
Will a gorilla get stronger with repeated deadlift attempts, sure he would.
How about a body builder gorrilla, you know, just like human being, build one up so he is 40% larger in size and almost twice as strong as when he first started training. Shoot grams and grams of roids into him every day too.
If he could go thru the motions of the benchpress, I have no doubt
he could bench press over 500Lb the first attempt.
If we could train a gorilla for the bench press, I have no doubt he could get over 3x that of a human being.

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 287 (357168)
10-17-2006 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by djrobins
10-17-2006 10:31 PM


Re: Body structure comparison
This is an odd topic, but interesting nonetheless.
Current deadlift is just under 1000Lb. I'd wager the gorilla hand gripping strength is 4-6 x greater than a human being.
How much you think a 450Lb ferocious gorilla could deadlift? I'd wager over 2000LB the first attempt.
That sounds like a reasonable figure.
If he could go thru the motions of the benchpress, I have no doubt
he could bench press over 500Lb the first attempt.
If we could train a gorilla for the bench press, I have no doubt he could get over 3x that of a human being.
I think we should probably consider some anatomical differnces. A gorilla doesn't have the same frame as a human and might find it akward to find the dexterity to achieve this. I don't doubt the animals physical strength to achieve this, however.

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 Message 224 by djrobins, posted 10-17-2006 10:31 PM djrobins has replied

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