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Author
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Topic: Photos confirm Ron Wyatt's Pharoah's Chariots discovery!!!
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 61 of 101 (350880)
09-21-2006 12:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 45 by Buzsaw
09-19-2006 10:28 PM
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Re: -
Hi Arach. I Kings 9:26 is the reference where Aqaba is called the Red Sea. yes, it doesn't make much sense that a navy would gather in a marsh. that does give the "sea of reeds is the swamp to the north" view (ala, multiple documentaries on the history channel) a rather large problem.
I checked this all out with my Hebrew English interlinear and I see you are right that the literal Hebrew in Exodus and Numbers is the Sea of Reeds. yes, it's definitally the literal meaning -- the question is, what is the idiomatic meaning, ie: what is the sea of reeds now? it's possible it's the red sea, it's just an odd name for a sea where no reeds can grow. but not an impossible name. we have stranger names for some of our stuff.
I see in this I Kings reference the literal is Red Sea, so we do have two different Hebrew words for these texts. no, in the reference you provided it does indeed say -. since you have an interlineal translation, compare the hebrew in both passages. it's the same. (as a side note, i can't do interlineal hebrew translations. the fact that everything's backwards in one language or the other bothers me. i like side-by-sides.)
I guess your explanation makes sense. So I stand corrected on this matter. Thanks. no no, it's just that it literally means "sea of reeds." there's lots of names that have very little to do with their literal meanings. for instance, you are neither a bee, nor a saw.
Wherever the crossing was, according to the Bible the site needed to be an area large enough for a great multitude yet also needed to be mountainous enough to entrap them, so the Neweiba beach fits that whereas an actual reed marsh would not. the size of the "mized multitude" is debatable, but the size of the hebrew exodus is known (see the book of numbers). i sincerely doubt that more egyptians left on the exodus than hebrew.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by Buzsaw, posted 09-19-2006 10:28 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 62 of 101 (350884)
09-21-2006 12:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 57 by Brian
09-20-2006 1:58 PM
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Re: 'Suph' is borrowed from Egyptian
Another point that I find extremely interesting is that, etymologically speaking, 'suph' is a loan word from the Egytpian 'twf(y)' , which means 'papyrus/reeds'!!!! yes. also, could you point me in the direction for some kind of key to the transliteration people use for egyptian/coptic/cuneiform/ugaritic/etc? things like 'twf(y)' never quite make sense to me.
The area that this text refers to is none other than a location close to the City of Rameses, the EXACT place where the Bible claims the Exodus began! buzsaw's reference from 1 kings 9 is worth noting, as much as i hate to say it. it indicates that "sea of reeds" might be something of a colloquial misnomer, idiomatically refering to a larger body of water. and the red sea makes a better candidate than the meditteranean.
I mean this evidence alone is ten times the quality of this tempest crap. well, yes.
Someone truly interested in the subject, and pro-Bible, could really produce a good quality thesis for the Exodus being a real historical event. i'm not sure i agree. some have suggested that it's a corrupted cultural memory of the hyksos explusions. not that hebrews themselves were involved, but that hyksos feeling egypt became part of the background cultural context of other semitic groups.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 57 by Brian, posted 09-20-2006 1:58 PM | | Brian has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 65 by Buzsaw, posted 09-30-2006 5:48 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: 08-16-2006
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Message 63 of 101 (351228)
09-22-2006 5:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
09-20-2006 12:16 PM
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Re: Wyatt Archaeology, Ltd.
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Archer All species are transitional.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by ringo, posted 09-20-2006 12:16 PM | | ringo has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 64 of 101 (353308)
09-30-2006 5:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 57 by Brian
09-20-2006 1:58 PM
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Re: 'Suph' is borrowed from Egyptian
Brian writes: The area that this text refers to is none other than a location close to the City of Rameses, the EXACT place where the Bible claims the Exodus began! I mean this evidence alone is ten times the quality of this tempest crap. 1. There's a lot I have to say about this when we get to it in the great debate. I don't want to unload my arsenal here as to all the significant reasons it can't be a reed lake on the flats near Rameses. 2. "Tempest crap?" You've got your work cut out for you on the GD if you think you can reduce this important ancient archeological discovery to the status of "crap." So far I don't see you in shining armour on that issue in the debate. It will surprise me if you can do any better when we get to the location of the crossing as per the Biblical account. I respect your intelligence and don't mean to demean but the evidence favors my hypothesis when all the cards get layed out. Just as it takes more than one card to win a card game it requires numerous corroborating events to form a valid hypothesis. Though some of the corroborating evens are weaker than others, they all contribute something to the big picture.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 57 by Brian, posted 09-20-2006 1:58 PM | | Brian has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 68 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2006 5:58 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Re: 'Suph' is borrowed from Egyptian
Arach writes: buzsaw's reference from 1 kings 9 is worth noting, as much as i hate to say it. it indicates that "sea of reeds" might be something of a colloquial misnomer, idiomatically refering to a larger body of water. and the red sea makes a better candidate than the meditteranean. Thanks for being fair, my friend. Not only that, but why in the world would they later come right back to the same reed sea/lake so close to where they began the long journey, so far from their ultimate destination and so close to harm's way?
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 66 of 101 (353313)
09-30-2006 5:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 65 by Buzsaw
09-30-2006 5:48 PM
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Re: 'Suph' is borrowed from Egyptian
Thanks for being fair, my friend. Not only that, but why in the world would they later come right back to the same reed sea/lake so close to where they began the long journey, so far from their ultimate destination and so close to harm's way? yes. there's another point worth noting as well. not only is the modern hebrew name for the red sea (see wikipedia for example), but apparently this has been the name for it since at least before the septuagint. so as a point of tradition, "yam suf" means the red sea. of course, that's not a very good argument, because it's circular. the modern name exists because of the way the bible is read, and the it's likely the tradition has similar roots. but taken with the reference you gave in kings, the ~200bc tradition is decent corroborating evidence that the authors probably meant a larger body of water.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by Buzsaw, posted 09-30-2006 5:48 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 67 of 101 (353314)
09-30-2006 5:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 65 by Buzsaw
09-30-2006 5:48 PM
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Re: 'Suph' is borrowed from Egyptian
Not only that, but why in the world would they later come right back to the same reed sea/lake so close to where they began the long journey, so far from their ultimate destination and so close to harm's way? Beacuse it never happened and just like the mystery writer today has the characters do really stupid things to keep the reader interested, the writes of the Exodus myth threw in cliff hanger after cliff hanger and had all of the characters from Moshe to Pharoah do really stupid things. Mack Sennett wished he could write slapstick like the Exodus story but would not even dream to aspire to the comedic level of Ron Wyatt.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by Buzsaw, posted 09-30-2006 5:48 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 69 by Buzsaw, posted 09-30-2006 6:20 PM | | jar has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.2
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Message 68 of 101 (353315)
09-30-2006 5:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 64 by Buzsaw
09-30-2006 5:37 PM
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Tempest Stele
There's nothing in the Temepst Stele that gives any significant link to the Exodus. Here's a translation hosted on The Thera Foundation
(7) ... the gods expressed (8) their discontent ... The gods (made?) the sky come with a tempest of (rain?); it caused darkness in the Western region; the sky was (9) unleashed, without ... ... more than the roar of the crowd; ... was powerful... on the mountains more than the turbulence of the (10) cataract which is at Elephantine. Each house, ... each shelter (or each covered place) that they reached... (11) ... were floating in the water like the barks of papyrus (on the outside?) of the royal residence for ... day(s), (12) with no one able to light the torch anywhere. Then His Majesty said 'How these (events) surpass the power of the great god and the wills of the divinities!' And His Majesty descended (13) in his boat, his council following him. The (people were?) at the east and the west, silent, for they had no more clothes (?) on them (14) after the power of the god was manifested. Then His Majesty arrived in Thebes ... this statue; it received what it had desired. (15) His Majesty set about to strengthen the two lands, to cause the water to evacuate without (the aid of) his (men?), to provide them with silver, (16) with gold, with copper, with oil, with clothing, with all the products they desired; after which His Majesty rested in the palace - life, health, strength. (17) It was then that His Majesty was informed that the funerary concessions had been invaded (by the water), that the sepulchral chambers had been damaged, that the structures of funerary enclosures had been undermined, that the pyramids had collapsed? (18) all that existed had been annihilated. His Majesty then ordered the repair of the chapels which had fallen in ruins in all the country, restoration of the (19) monuments of the gods, the re-erection of their precincts, the replacement of the sacred objects in the room of appearances, the re-closing of the secret place, the re-introduction (20) into their naoi of the statues which were lying on the ground, the re-erection of the fire altars, the replacement of the offering tables back on their feet, to assure them the provision of offerings, (21) the augmentation of the revenues of the personnel, the restoration of the country to its former state. They carried out everything, as the king had ordered it.
There's no mention of Israelites, the Exodus or even the Hyksos. The "crap" is the attempts to pretend otherwise. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 09-30-2006 5:37 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 69 of 101 (353322)
09-30-2006 6:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 67 by jar
09-30-2006 5:56 PM
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Re: 'Suph' is borrowed from Egyptian
jar writes: Beacuse it never happened and just like the mystery writer today has the characters do really stupid things to keep the reader interested, the writes of the Exodus myth threw in cliff hanger after cliff hanger and had all of the characters from Moshe to Pharoah do really stupid things. Mack Sennett wished he could write slapstick like the Exodus story but would not even dream to aspire to the comedic level of Ron Wyatt. Jar, as is often the case with you, your message is pointless strawman fodder. What is being addressed are arguments about the scripural acount itself as to what it says and means, not what has been proven to be necessarily factual historically. We are debating scripture context. Please get with the program at hand.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by jar, posted 09-30-2006 5:56 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 70 by jar, posted 09-30-2006 6:28 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 70 of 101 (353326)
09-30-2006 6:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 69 by Buzsaw
09-30-2006 6:20 PM
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try reading what I write.
Buz writes: What is being addressed are arguments about the scripural acount itself as to what it says and means, not what has been proven to be necessarily factual historically. Which is exactly what I discussed and what you even quoted. In Message 65 Bus asked:
Not only that, but why in the world would they later come right back to the same reed sea/lake so close to where they began the long journey, so far from their ultimate destination and so close to harm's way? to which I replied as Buz himself quoted in Message 69:
quote:
Beacuse it never happened and just like the mystery writer today has the characters do really stupid things to keep the reader interested, the writers of the Exodus myth threw in cliff hanger after cliff hanger and had all of the characters from Moshe to Pharoah do really stupid things. Mack Sennett wished he could write slapstick like the Exodus story but would not even dream to aspire to the comedic level of Ron Wyatt.
The reason that the folk that wrote the Exodus fantasy had the Israelites make the big loop and come back into harms way was simply a plot device, a way to keep the story exciting. Edited by jar, : add an r
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 69 by Buzsaw, posted 09-30-2006 6:20 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 172 days) Posts: 673 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 71 of 101 (353337)
09-30-2006 8:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 65 by Buzsaw
09-30-2006 5:48 PM
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Babylon (Akkad) was site of enslavement and exodus.
Actually, the Hebrews were enslaved in Akkadia/Babylon and the exodus was from that country! This is shown by: 1) The Moses birth story is identical to the much earlier (circa 2300 bce) myth about the origins of Sargon I, founder and first king of Akkadia/Babylon. (Actually, almost all the myth's in genesis are lifts from Mesopotamian mythology.) 2) The name Abraham of Ur is just a dialectic corruption of Ham-Ur-Abi, and the 'two' individuals are contemporaneous (circa 1800 bce). 3) To solidify control of his empire and resolve the chaos caused by the diversity of laws being enforced in his vassal states, Ham-Ur-Abi issued his eponymous code, had it carved on stele (stone tablets) that were transported to and placed in the town centers of the capitols and major cities of all his subject states. These stele/tablets were transported in wagons especially built for the purpose and ornamented to denote their importance in enforcing the treaties and contracts between the Babylonian seat of government (the God-King)and the subject states. I. e., these special carriages were the 'arks of the covenant'. 4) The Akkadians/Babylonians, like the Hebrii were of Semitic origin. It is not clear if the Hebrews were ever enslaved in Babylon (at this time), or, as seems more likely, they were a fully voluntary pioneering group that left babylon to settle in Canon establishing their first outpost at Meggadon. 5) The Akkadia/Babylonia area - now southern Iraq - is replete with broad shallow reed filled seas and marshes that must be crossed to travel west. These marshes have many transversable land bridges during the dry season. The way this scenario brings all the discordant pieces of the exodus story into harmony explains why it has gained almost universal acceptance amongst knowledgeable scholars. Edited by AnswersInGenitals, : Because the voices told me to!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by Buzsaw, posted 09-30-2006 5:48 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Re: Babylon (Akkad) was site of enslavement and exodus.
i'm not sure if this is continuing the "joke" line of this thread or not, but i had something of a similar idea a while ago: that perhaps the exodus was written not about egypt, but babylon. since most of the contruction of the torah dates to this time, it's possible that it "egypt" was a kind of code-word for babylon, to not piss off their captors. however, dueteronomy still exists, and dates to well before the babylonian diaspora. so this very, very likely is not the case. but it's an interesting thought.
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AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 172 days) Posts: 673 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 73 of 101 (353349)
09-30-2006 8:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 68 by PaulK
09-30-2006 5:58 PM
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Re: Tempest Stele
The most recent analysis indicates that this stele is a letter from Ahmose to his insurance agent as part of his claim for damages caused by his toilet backing up. As with such claims that we see today, there is some indication of exaggeration of the actual damages.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2006 5:58 PM | | PaulK has not replied |
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AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 172 days) Posts: 673 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Re: Babylon (Akkad) was site of enslavement and exodus.
But we're not talking about the sixth century bce diaspora, which is a well documented conquest and enslavement. The exodus refers to a much earlier event, the discription of which has been grossly distorted, partly for political reasons, but mostly out of simple retelling errors by people who no longer were aquainted with the original context. Deuteronomy is just the same story with similar distortions gained through a separate communications channel.
'm not sure if this is continuing the "joke" line of this thread or not
I never joke and I greatly resent that, like Ron Wyatt, my sincere efforts are not taken more seriously.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Re: Babylon (Akkad) was site of enslavement and exodus.
But we're not talking about the sixth century bce diaspora, which is a well documented conquest and enslavement. The exodus refers to a much earlier event, the discription of which has been grossly distorted, yes, but what i'm saying is that what if the sixth century bce diaspora was the motivating inspiration behind the fabrication of a supposed earlier event? i bring up deuteronomy to demonstrate that this is probably not the case, as our earliest text of deuteronomy (and our earliest historical record of deuteronomy, from the book of kings) date to well before the babylonian exile.
I never joke and I greatly resent that, like Ron Wyatt, my sincere efforts are not taken more seriously. lol!
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