Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,404 Year: 3,661/9,624 Month: 532/974 Week: 145/276 Day: 19/23 Hour: 2/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Your eternal destination: you decide.
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 241 of 246 (365573)
11-23-2006 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Silent H
11-23-2006 8:49 AM


Re: sense/feel
Now lets all just calm down, in a moment someone is going to say qualia and I'm then going to have to cry. Its Mary the colour scientist all over again.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Silent H, posted 11-23-2006 8:49 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Silent H, posted 11-23-2006 11:16 AM Wounded King has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 242 of 246 (365587)
11-23-2006 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Wounded King
11-23-2006 10:12 AM


Re: sense/feel
Well I almost did use the term qualia... should people not say inversion either? Heheh... But I didn't understand the Mary reference.

holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Wounded King, posted 11-23-2006 10:12 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Wounded King, posted 11-23-2006 4:29 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 243 of 246 (365595)
11-23-2006 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Heathen
11-23-2006 9:52 AM


Re: sense/feel
I had not heard of NLP nor Derren Brown. The former seems similar in some background assumptions as what I was discussing (though not at all in practical matters), while the latter has nothing to do with Churchland's work (but is interesting as illusionist type stuff goes).
This was actual science about how the mind works on the physical level to perceive, and not some movement suggesting treatment or simply to wow people.
In the case of colors, for example, the way eyes process color at the neuron level has been investigated. We are trichromatic (theor. possibility of tetrachromatic) which means we have three color "sets" which determine how we see any particular color. They work on a series of neuron impulses which activate or inhibit on each of the specific "sets". BTW I am simplifying this.
A neutral signal (so a balance of excitatory and inhibitory impulses) results in a grey perception. One can overwork a neuron which makes it shift toward grey (resting status).
That can be played with in predictable ways. A 3D table has been contructed based on all possible visual colors. Using the fact that neurons "burn out" with overexposure, and so shift toward grey (on that set), one can use the chart to predict what color you will see when your "burned out" neurons look at a different color. It should be shifted in a predictable way. In fact it does.
The exciting thing was that the brain's processing can theoretically process more colors (when looking at all excitatory/inhibitory combos) than are in the full range of visual color possibilities. The question was raised whether we could be forced to "see" these new colors which are not possible to be seen in reality (they don't have a real wavelength) but is theoretically predicted to be seen because our brain processes color using this trichromatic system.
So one burns out the neuron processing a certain color and then looks at black, the result would be that we see some wholly new color... it looks black as black can be but it is also blue for instance. An impossible color to exist, but our brains make it real. He called these things chimerical colors. A figment of how our brains work to process color for us, but as it is a system of impulses that can be fatigued it can be manipulated internally to produce novel (yet predictable) sensations.
The gender recognition thing was wilder and more intriguing since it wasn't simply a color neuron that was being overloaded. Clearly in this case we have recognition filter neurons (which would not be located directly in the retina) which could also be fatigued.

holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Heathen, posted 11-23-2006 9:52 AM Heathen has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 244 of 246 (365599)
11-23-2006 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Silent H
11-23-2006 8:49 AM


Re: sense/feel
That is interesting, but it isn't really what rat was saying.
He was originally saying that because (he thinks) he knows that he and others in his church group feel EXACTLY the same feelings after a service, this is somehow indicative of the cause of those feelings (God).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Silent H, posted 11-23-2006 8:49 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Silent H, posted 11-23-2006 1:28 PM nator has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 245 of 246 (365605)
11-23-2006 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by nator
11-23-2006 12:54 PM


Re: sense/feel
Whoaaaa was I way off. Sorry about that. I just popped in and saw your post then read back only one or two posts. Clearly I did not read far or well enough.

holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by nator, posted 11-23-2006 12:54 PM nator has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 246 of 246 (365631)
11-23-2006 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Silent H
11-23-2006 11:16 AM


Re: sense/feel
Mary the colour scientist is a thought experiment regarding qualia.
Mary is born and brought up in anenvironment with no colour, only shades of black and white. Mary is a keen neuroscientist and her field of expertise is human perception of visible light, specifically the wavelengths we think of as red. Mary is very good and eventually she understands every aspect of all the physical processes involved in the perception of colour.
If Mary then leaves her black and white environment and actually sees the colour red for the first time has she gained any knowledge which she did not already posess?
The qualia based answer would be yes. She has gained direct knowledge of the actual experience of the perception of red, the quale for it.
I believe Churchland has actually addressed this thought experiment and his response was that Mary would not have the ability to perceive red since she would have been denied the neccessary environmental stimuli to develop the correct neural structures.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Silent H, posted 11-23-2006 11:16 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024