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Author Topic:   Your eternal destination: you decide.
alacrity fitzhugh
Member (Idle past 4289 days)
Posts: 194
Joined: 02-10-2004


Message 181 of 246 (361563)
11-04-2006 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Archer Opteryx
11-04-2006 2:54 PM


Re: beyond . . . doubt
archer opterix writes:
No and maybe not, but they're respectful
Sorry, did not mean to imply any form of disrespect, just curious.
archer opterix writes:
Taiwanese Buddhists often have Christian friends.
Most of my friends and family are christian, the school my children go to is christian.
archer opterix writes:
Catholics run a number of schools and missions here (most of the nuns seem to be Filipino) and Chiang Kai-Shek was a Methodist. They respect Jesus as they respect anyone's deity. Quan Yin devotees would have no problem with a person praying to both Guan Yin and Jesus if they felt the need.
This is why I asked. Know as much about Buddhism as I know about christianity. Figured that if I asked you the answer would be to the point without any preaching.
archer opterix writes:
A number of deities, bodhissatvas, and revered figures are prayed to here. One never rejects a figure someone else worships. One never knows, after all, what wisdom may lie in those mysteries. It's wise to be respectful. At the same time, no one expects to keep track of every figure a person might possibly pray to.
More info, knew asking you I would get a great answer. Thank you.
archer opterix writes:
I hope this answers your question.
Yes it did, again thanks for the link and answer.
archer opterix writes:
It's certainly safe to say the average Guan Yin devotee tends to be more knowledgable of, and accepting of, Jesus than the average Christian tends to be of Guan Yin.
Its safe to say that, it is also safe to say most christians and Guan Yin devotee have never heard of Ye ho waah, google tsalagi.

Look to this day, For yesterday is already a dream. And tomorrow only a vision. But today We lived, makes every Yesterday a dream of Happiness and every tomorrow A vision of hope. Look well there to This day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-04-2006 2:54 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by jar, posted 11-04-2006 6:51 PM alacrity fitzhugh has replied
 Message 188 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-05-2006 12:45 AM alacrity fitzhugh has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 182 of 246 (361593)
11-04-2006 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
11-01-2006 10:40 AM


so many choices
iano writes:
Even the most rabid athiest will accept that God of the Bible could inf fact exist. They would also accept that Heaven and Hell of the Bible could in fact exist.....
If you were to die a few minutes from now where do you think God would send you? And why do you think he would send you there.
well, with Jesus' God I might stand a (slight) chance of going to heaven, as he did repeatedly say it's what you do that will gain you life.
Paul's God would definitely send me to hell, as I don't believe that Jesus died for our sins.
Jehovah the war God, well I'm not quite sure what he'd do as he's an evil, sadistic bastard who cannot be relied upon one way or the other.
....are there any other Biblical gods I missed ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iano, posted 11-01-2006 10:40 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by iano, posted 11-04-2006 7:13 PM Legend has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 183 of 246 (361622)
11-04-2006 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by alacrity fitzhugh
11-04-2006 4:13 PM


Re: beyond . . . doubt
Its safe to say that, it is also safe to say most christians and Guan Yin devotee have never heard of Ye ho waah, google tsalagi.
Really? They must not have been to New Echota either then?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by alacrity fitzhugh, posted 11-04-2006 4:13 PM alacrity fitzhugh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by alacrity fitzhugh, posted 11-04-2006 7:03 PM jar has not replied

  
alacrity fitzhugh
Member (Idle past 4289 days)
Posts: 194
Joined: 02-10-2004


Message 184 of 246 (361626)
11-04-2006 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by jar
11-04-2006 6:51 PM


Re: beyond . . . doubt
jar writes:
Really? They must not have been to New Echota either then?
If they have never been to Georgia, I would guess not.

Look to this day, For yesterday is already a dream. And tomorrow only a vision. But today We lived, makes every Yesterday a dream of Happiness and every tomorrow A vision of hope. Look well there to This day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by jar, posted 11-04-2006 6:51 PM jar has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 185 of 246 (361630)
11-04-2006 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Legend
11-04-2006 5:42 PM


Re: so many choices
well, with Jesus' God I might stand a (slight) chance of going to heaven, as he did repeatedly say it's what you do that will gain you life.
Trouble is he also said what would gain you death. And if your honest with yourself you see that you do that too. Which would leave you in RC limbo at best.
Well not really. You can't do that which he said would gain you life. "Do unto others". You can't do it.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Legend, posted 11-04-2006 5:42 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 11-04-2006 7:44 PM iano has not replied
 Message 197 by Legend, posted 11-05-2006 2:37 PM iano has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 186 of 246 (361636)
11-04-2006 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by iano
11-04-2006 7:13 PM


Re: so many choices
Well not really. You can't do that which he said would gain you life. "Do unto others". You can't do it.
Why not pray tell?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by iano, posted 11-04-2006 7:13 PM iano has not replied

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 187 of 246 (361646)
11-04-2006 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Archer Opteryx
11-04-2006 2:54 PM


Re: beyond . . . doubt, but not redemption
Your post and this thread are showing why so many westerners, particularly christians, are flocking to eastern religions and philosophies. Christianity is such a crappy one-shot, all-or-nothing proposition. You get just one bite of the apple, and if you don't bite it in exactly the right way, chew it exactly 25 times before swallowing, or even choose the wrong apple to start with, you are condemned to an eternity in the lake of fire. Imagine going to a university where your very first wrong answer on any test gets you permanently expelled. No higher education. No glamourous job in the software industry. You probably wind up fighting some nut case's war in the middle east. That's the christian dogma. There was recently a thread in this forum asking people's opinion on whether Hitler went to heaven or hell. I didn't read or participate in that forum, but I believe he was reincarnated as a dung beetle on a small island where all the animals have very serious diarrhea. It will take him thousands of reincarnations before he's even human again. But he does get more chances to see if he can get life right. Hell, even Jerry Falwell is converting over to the more rational and certainly more divine eastern ways of belief, although I understand that in his case, the conversion occurred when he first noticed how similar his appearance is to the Bhudda. So, Iano's OP challenge is completely beside any point and irrelevant. Whenever you die, do you want your eternal fate to be decided by just your first beta-version attempt at life, or by an exquisite sequence of personal growth and gaining of wisdom; of deaths and rebirths that bring you ever closer to to your ideal existence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-04-2006 2:54 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-05-2006 2:57 AM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 188 of 246 (361729)
11-05-2006 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by alacrity fitzhugh
11-04-2006 4:13 PM


Re: beyond . . . doubt
Sorry, did not mean to imply any form of disrespect, just curious.
I didn't take it that way at all, AF. It was a question to savor, and I did get the impression you have experiences of your own with it.
When I described Buddhists as being 'respectful' of Christian beliefs I was only trying to get the right nuance. I didn't want to convey an attitude of total indifference. 'Benign indifference' may come closer to it.
Its safe to say that, it is also safe to say most christians and Guan Yin devotee have never heard of Ye ho waah, google 'tsalagi'.
Indeed it is, and thanks for the link. You started me on a fascinating exploration of Cherokee lore and literature that I plan to continue.
Being able to share these things is one reason why the Eastern attitude strikes so many people in the West as refreshing, I think. It allows more exchange. For practical reasons one accepts the fact that one can't possibly know every form of religious wisdom. For reasons related to this, and equally practical, one never dismisses the possibility of new insight.
Can you share more about your interest in Ye ho waah?
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo repair.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Punctuation.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by alacrity fitzhugh, posted 11-04-2006 4:13 PM alacrity fitzhugh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by alacrity fitzhugh, posted 11-05-2006 1:14 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied
 Message 191 by jar, posted 11-05-2006 1:23 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
alacrity fitzhugh
Member (Idle past 4289 days)
Posts: 194
Joined: 02-10-2004


Message 189 of 246 (361745)
11-05-2006 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Archer Opteryx
11-05-2006 12:45 AM


Re: beyond . . . doubt
Thank you. We only have so much time to live, to limit your knowledge to just a very narrow area is sad. This could be deemed off topic, so again thank you, you have given me an area of learning that I will enjoy

Look to this day, For yesterday is already a dream. And tomorrow only a vision. But today We lived, makes every Yesterday a dream of Happiness and every tomorrow A vision of hope. Look well there to This day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-05-2006 12:45 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by tsig, posted 11-05-2006 1:23 AM alacrity fitzhugh has replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 190 of 246 (361751)
11-05-2006 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by alacrity fitzhugh
11-05-2006 1:14 AM


Re: beyond . . . doubt
If you belive in god then you should join every religion on earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by alacrity fitzhugh, posted 11-05-2006 1:14 AM alacrity fitzhugh has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 191 of 246 (361752)
11-05-2006 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Archer Opteryx
11-05-2006 12:45 AM


creators
Ye ho waah was the creator, and sang the first hymn.
The thing to remember about the Native American religions though is that there was great diversity, of tales, of beliefs, of customs, of traditions.
The Cherokees were a very sophisticated people and it is reflected in both their traditions and culture. The avatar alacrity uses is a painting of the great march, the Trail of Tears. To understand the story though you need to look at the painting and then look at the wigwams that the Chreokees were driven out of.
Some examples:
The teepee of Chief Vann
or the hut of Major Ridge who was one of the folk that signed the treaty of New Echota. Vann along with Ridge and John Ross fought a long and futile legal challenge, eventually taking it to the US Supreme Court only to have President Jackson simply ignore law and resulting in the forced immigration west.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-05-2006 12:45 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 192 of 246 (361777)
11-05-2006 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by AnswersInGenitals
11-04-2006 8:00 PM


Re: beyond . . . doubt, but not redemption
I don't know anything about afterlife, but I know what I like...
AnswersInGenitals:
There was recently a thread in this forum asking people's opinion on whether Hitler went to heaven or hell. I didn't read or participate in that forum, but I believe he was reincarnated as a dung beetle on a small island where all the animals have very serious diarrhea.
I like.
It will take him thousands of reincarnations before he's even human again. But he does get more chances to see if he can get life right.
The insight I get from the idea of reincarnation is that life is a learning process. Mistakes are built into the process of learning. They enable it. In time you reduce them as you understand more of the material.
Judeo-Christian concepts owe more to judiciary models. Life is about laws, infractions, punishments and clemency. The model tells us much about the nature of the human conscience, but it has trouble with aspects of the universe that cannot be intepreted this way.
Hell, even Jerry Falwell is converting over to the more rational and certainly more divine eastern ways of belief, although I understand that in his case, the conversion occurred when he first noticed how similar his appearance is to the Bhudda.
It's still going to be a long time before Falwell can crack that beatific smile.
So, Iano's OP challenge is completely beside any point and irrelevant. Whenever you die, do you want your eternal fate to be decided by just your first beta-version attempt at life, or by an exquisite sequence of personal growth and gaining of wisdom; of deaths and rebirths that bring you ever closer to to your ideal existence?
You have to think any eternal, ominpresent and omnipotent creator worthy of the description would understand what we face here. Our lives are pitifully brief and we're compelled to sleep away a third even of that. Our experiences are limited, our ideas uncertain, and our survival issues pressing.
To imagine such a being consigning us to eternal anguish for reaching an inaccurate conclusion about invisible things during the brief opportunity afforded us to ponder the matter... well, let's just say that would be a strange way to run a universe.
So strange, in fact, that the image suggests less about eternal reality than it does about human fears. The fear of hell is the fear that you might have made an irreversible mistake--or the fear that someone else might not abide by your rules unless properly cowed.
The behaviors we've seen on display in this thread confirm as much.
At first it appears we are being asked to consider the possibility of heaven and hell for the sake of argument. When the author of the OP shrinks from answering the same question turned back on himself, you see what's really going on. The OP isn't (as we are later told) about hypotheticals. So what is it about?
The OP attempts to impose a structure on the rest of us and get us to take roles in it. We are asked to do so regardless of whether or not we buy into the worldview it reflects.
As in this thread, so in society. Fundamentalists contrive to impose order--their order--on those around them. The universe, as always, proves to be remarkably uncooperative with the project. When it demands self-examination from those who hope to impose the structure, they run.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : format.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : HTML.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 11-04-2006 8:00 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by iceage, posted 11-05-2006 3:08 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 193 of 246 (361779)
11-05-2006 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Archer Opteryx
11-05-2006 2:57 AM


Excellent
Very excellent piece Archer! I wish this forum supported some form of elevating a post like yours above the noise. Bravo....
our ideas uncertain
There are some around here that are certainly cocksure about their ideas. In this very topic I posted something way down below to the OP that I thought was fitting by Bertrand Russell
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt"
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-05-2006 2:57 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by AdminNWR, posted 11-05-2006 8:29 AM iceage has not replied

  
AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 246 (361803)
11-05-2006 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by iceage
11-05-2006 3:08 AM


Re: Excellent
I wish this forum supported some form of elevating a post like yours above the noise.
You can give it a POTM nomination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by iceage, posted 11-05-2006 3:08 AM iceage has not replied

  
alacrity fitzhugh
Member (Idle past 4289 days)
Posts: 194
Joined: 02-10-2004


Message 195 of 246 (361814)
11-05-2006 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by tsig
11-05-2006 1:23 AM


Re: beyond . . . doubt
ts writes:
If you believe in god then you should join every religion on earth.
Where did I ever say I believed in god/s ?

Look to this day, For yesterday is already a dream. And tomorrow only a vision. But today We lived, makes every Yesterday a dream of Happiness and every tomorrow A vision of hope. Look well there to This day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by tsig, posted 11-05-2006 1:23 AM tsig has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-05-2006 1:06 PM alacrity fitzhugh has replied

  
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