Women's Reactions to Rape

Yes, yes, I know you won't reply, I don't care. Yes, and women have never been told that to look like Claudia Schiffer, Halle Berry, etc is what they should strive to become...so, where do they get this from?? It's called mass media. So, where do you get the idea that this object is there for whatever you want of it?...hmmm
The topless bars
Penthouse/Playboy
Video Games (Grand Theft Auto: Vice City comes to mind)
Internet sites
Beer ads
TV shows like 'Family Guy'I concede though that this knife cuts both ways. In other words, women get the message as well, only it places them in an inferior position, socially and otherwise. The ideas of a Prince Charming and Love=Sex doesn't help either. So, as you have shown with self-defense, it cannot worsen the problem by having a "grandiose plan to change the minds of all men?" and I would add women as well.

So time for Plan B: Arm women. So take exception to it. The reality is that there seems to be no way to predict what man will turn into a rapist. If there were, the majority of rapes would be stranger rapes.So, sorry. I'm a man, too, and it sucks. But until there's a way to predict which men are going to suddenly metamorphose into dangerous rapists, women are completely justified in treating us all like potential ones. But the only people you have to blame for this are other men. What men? There's only one there - the rapist. Isn't it lunacy to expect him just to stop? Isn't it lunacy for a woman to gamble her saftey on him doing just that? Look, talk me through this. The first time you said this I thought you were joking because I wouldn't have believed anyone would have been manifestly stupid enough to confuse my argument with this ridiculous characture.But clearly I was wrong. Obviously, it makes sense to you to go from recognition of the failure of men to police themselves and a suggestion that women act accordingly to blaming the victim of violent assault for crimes perpetrated against her person. And it's clearly not just you; almost everybody who enters this thread shoots off that salvo. So talk me through how it makes sense. Because, as far as I can see, it doesn't.It's a sign of the weakness of your own argument that the best defense of your position is to misrepresent mine. This is idiotic. The problem is that these 12 guys are rapists.Where's this "culture" that's supposed to have told you and I that it's ok to rape? Because I've never seen it. I've never met anyone who's seen it.Your "plan" is just a convinient smokescreen for inaction. You reduce the problem to a situation that you're not expected to solve because it eases your conscience to spread the blame so widely you don't have to point a finger. Or worse - you're prefer that women have to rely on men for their defense, because it makes your ego feel better.Well, I don't give a damn about your ego, or your archaic need to have women rely on you for protection. The problem is rape, and your attitude simply facilitates it. You perpetuate the stereotype of women as too weak to lift a hand in their own defense. You must be thinking of someone else.

I don't understand where you expect this "distrust" to stem from. Distrust comes from powerlessness, not from confidence and ability.Have you ever met a paranoid martial artist? I never have. Learning how to defend yourself gives you the confidence to trust, not a distrust in your fellow person.There's an array of lethal objects arranged about the house, and I know that my wife would use them on me to defend herself, if that was necessary. But I trust her, and she me."Distrust" simply isn't a part of this equation, and I don't understand why it keeps coming up.

Look, if your plan to change the male mind can't even succeed where feminist ideas are strongest, that is to say college, isn't it about time we realized what a manifest failure this plan has been?And I say this as a man, and as a feminist. Your plan to get men to stop raping women is hopeless. It's a failure. What more evidence do you need than the very surveys you just alluded to?It's time to start arming women against predators, because reforming the predators simply doesn't work. And the predators could be literally any man they meet.

Maybe deep-seated is the wrong term. How about all-encompassing, overwhelming distrust of men?And frankly, my having martial arts training is not going to stop a man from raping me if he is bound and determined to do so. I did say learning to protect yourself is a good thing, but even that can only go so far. Even the skinniest guy is probably physically stronger than I am. Even with martial arts training, I can still be overpowered by sheer force.Say I meet a man, I find I like him. He's funny, personable and attractive, and I don't get any kind of weird vibe from him. After a couple of weeks, I decide I like him and so I go to his home because he's going to make me dinner. After a nice dinner, we sit next to each other on the couch to watch a little tv. No funny business - just sitting. At this point, I am not expecting anything other than maybe a little smooching and maybe I'm fantasizing about the future - almost falling asleep, I feel so comfortable. But what if he turns around and suddenly grabs me? Though still strong and in good shape, I'm 100 pounds lighter and I've been taken completely by surprise. I can't get my legs free because they are pinned by his own legs and weight. His hands have pinned my arms. Even martial arts training is going to be difficult to use if I can't get up. If I struggle too much, he punches me and knocks me silly. He threatens me with a knife he pulls out of somewhere and says he'll cut my throat and bury me in his basement if I make another peep. He's been planning this since the beginning.Most women will simply stop struggling and hope for the best. Most women would prefer to live. I'm raped and hopefully let go.Now what? No gun or knife would have helped me unless they were in my hand. Martial arts training goes out the window because my arms and legs were trapped. I blame is myself for trusting the jackass and him for being a jackass. Do I tell someone? My family? They'll be hurt and feel pity for me. My friends? Same thing. I don't want anyone feeling sorry for me. In fact, I don't want anyone to know I was so fucking stupid as to trust him in the first place. What was I thinking going over to his house so soon? That's why most rapes are not reported.Then to have people wonder about you and the 'truth'... slut, whore, tease...Crash, I personally could not live a healthy, fulfilling life if I had to worry about being raped by every single man I meet. How would I work with men, then? How can I carry a gun and at the first inkling of threat, pull it out? How would he feel if he was only trying to kiss my neck or reaching over to take something out of the glove compartment and I pull out my gun and threaten to shoot his ass? Would YOU want to live in a world like that?Carrying a gun or knife in my purse will help protect me against stranger rape. When I'm walking down the street at night... or when someone breaks into my house. It's not going to help me when I'm attacked by a man I considered a friend.

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But I trust her, and she me.

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And that, Crash, is the problem. She trusts you. She trusts that you will not hurt her. You both need that trust in your lives. Without it, you wouldn't be able to survive as a couple.

Yes, exactly. And what I was trying to tell you is that that trust persists even with the knowledge that she could kill me if she wanted.And, look. You can always invent scenarios where whatever solution we're proposing won't be effective. So I don't find your example very convincing. Not every rape proceeds along the lines you've laid out; not even most of them.So we can invent scenarios where a woman gets raped, no matter how she prepares. So what? Why is that an argument for not being prepared at all? I don't get it. Maybe the knowledge that you have the weapon prevents the men you consider friends from attacking you.I really get the feeling you're not thinking through the consequences of being armed. It's not enough to be armed or trained, of course. People should know that you're armed and trained.

Rei - you're hillariousAside from the weapon issue, i thing Crashfrog is missing a few other obvious point with his "awareness & take back the night" thoughts:- historical psychological impact. Men often snir at this, but rape has only even been considered a punishable crime for less than 50 years. Men have always faught, had authority & control. It's FIRST nature for them to fight & win. Not women. Many dont' feel they have the ability to protect themselves, since that has been the way for the last 6000 years.- the emotional factor: most women feel embarrassed & ashamed when they are raped; instead of outraged like a man when he is wronged. Do you think that is a characteristic of a person who would become a black-belt? That whole "nurturing" thing that is a woman's first nature makes it hard for her to decide as a young girl "gee, i should learn to kill someone with my bare hands..."Back to the weapon issue:- it's illegal in Canada, too- with how screwed up the "justice" system is now, the victim would end up being sued or charged by the attempted rapist if she successfully defended herself with a weapon. If he doesn't actually leave any physical evidence on her that he was going to attempt to rape her, the stupid courts today would let him win.- what, is a 6 year old going to learn to use a gun or knife? How about self-defence? Most women who have a victim character in this area is because they started being sexually abused this young. They were taught that there was absolutely nothing they could do to stop even a teenage guy, let alone a huge man. That defeat stays with them as they age & grow.The problem is societal & governmental, not personal.

Boy, you know what I love? Rebutting the same arguments over and over again. People, please. If you're going to jump into this topic, start at the beginning and read all the posts. What did you think we were doing here, for over 200 posts? Me, from message 57:

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But if a woman is being attacked and thinking "hrm, I'd better not kill this guy, because I'm not sure I can make self-defense stick", then she needs to radically re-evaluate her priorities.

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The legal system provides remedies for the redress of injust conviction. What remedy is provided by the rapist?

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Wouldn't you rather take your chances with the legal system, with its built-in protocols for fairness and appeal, than the "system" the rapist has put into place, which is calculated to put you at every disadvantage? Really? Because you've made the exact opposite argument. You've just argued that women as a whole are too weak, in both body and will, to defend themselves, and that it's up to men to defend women from rape. But it's arrogant presumption in the extreme to expect women to go along with this plan, when to date our efforts to defend them from rape have been such manifest failures.Women simply can't afford to wait for men to do something about this problem. They've been waiting for centuries, and what's the result? One in three women will be raped in her lifetime.

no, that wasn't my point.it was that the psychological effects of past events make them FEEL as thought they are, not that they are.

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The reality is that there seems to be no way to predict what man will turn into a rapist. If there were, the majority of rapes would be stranger rapes.

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Is it true that there is no way to predict what man will rape, or is it just the case that we don't know if we can tell what men will rape because we haven't worked on figuring out that problem very much?

Learning self-defense, or training in weapon use, is a great way not to feel weak. It's very empowering.

Don't you think that, were it possible to tell, women would have worked out ways to do so by now? Rather than being so spectacularly wrong as to who the rapists are going to be?Are you telling me that it's only been the last couple of years that women have decided to respond to the reality of rape, even though men have been raping women for all of recorded civilization?I think we can pretty safely say that there's no way to distinguish rapists from non-rapists until it's too late.

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anyone would have been manifestly stupid enough to confuse my argument with this ridiculous characture.

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Lets start here:

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Belief in a just world

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Only 2% of accused rapists are convicted. In contrast FBI studies indicate that only 2% of all rape reports are false. "Low conviction rates result from insufficient evidence to prosecute, dismissal of trial due to technicalities and reluctance of victims to testify. For these reasons, low conviction rates do not imply false reporting."

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One of the main theories behind victim blaming is the just world hypothesis. "Individuals that have a strong belief in a just world can have this belief challenged when they encounter a victim of random misfortune such as a rape victim. The individual wants to believe that the world is a safe, just place where people get what they deserve and deserve what they get.

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Even when evidence suggests otherwise, the individual is very reluctant to give up this belief that the world is not just.
In the face of contradicting evidence, research suggests (Kleinke and Meyer, 1996) that people with a high belief in a just world will do one of two things: either they will try to eliminate the suffering of the innocent victims or else they will derogate them for their fate. Since it is impossible to reverse the crime of rape, and thus relieve the victim of her suffering, the rape victim is often subjected to derogation and blame. In this manner, the person who believes in a just world can maintain this belief as there is no longer a suffering person, but a woman who deserves her misfortune."

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No one wonders what the victim of a mugging or violent murder did to deserve it. Rape is a crime of violence, power and control. No one "deserves" it.

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And:

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Victim blame and the disinhibition of sexual arousal to rape vignettes.

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Author: Sundberg SL, Barbaree HE, Marshall WL.

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Violence Vict. 1991 Summer;6(2):103-20.

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"The present study examined the effects of differing levels of victim blame on the sexual arousal of males to rape vignettes. In the first experiment, a between-subjects experimental design was used to compare four groups of eight university males for their erectile responses to vignettes rated as low, medium, and high along a victim blame continuum. All groups found a consenting vignette more arousing than a nonconsenting vignette, however, this difference was significantly smaller for subjects in the high blame condition compared to the low and medium blame conditions. A second experiment supported the disinhibiting effect of the high victim blame manipulation using 12 university males in a within-subjects experimental design. The disinhibiting influence of victim blame on male sexual arousal to rape cues was discussed in relation to our broader understanding of sexual assault.

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Both from: http://pages.ivillage.com/...finderonlineresources/id36.htmlIn addition, lets consider Noam Chomsky's excellant summary of victim blaming as it relates to imperialist racism:

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When you’ve got your boot on somebody’s neck, you can’t just say, "I’m doing this because I’m a brute." You have to say, "I’m doing it because they deserve it. It’s for their good. That’s why I’ve got to do it." They’re "naughty children," as U.S. leaders described Latin Americans. They’re "naughty children" who have to be disciplined. Filipinos were described in the same way. Therefore, you don’t feel that you’re humiliating a child if you don’t let it eat poison or something. But that’s inherent in the relation of domination, unless you have unusual sensitivity among the ruling powers.

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Blaming the victim is something that ruling bodies use to justify their rule. It is very hard to recognise abusive behaviour in yourself without rationalising it away. The net result is that any oppressive body will construct for itself an ideology that rationalises its power and abuses as necessary, unavoidable, and virtuous, even for the victim.In our society, we have a long history of male domination of women, rationalised in exactly this manner. The rape victim is persistently held accountable for their own victimhood as a means of transposing guilt from the perpetrator to the victim.Almost everyone in this discussion has supported the general case that women would benefit from martial arts training in various forms, or even from carrying a weapon (although I do not support this). What has been objected to is the claim that you find it inexplicable that women do not TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for fending off such assaults, precisely because this, like all oppressive ideologies, is the transfer of culpability from the perpetrator to the victim.Furthermore, as mentioned about test subjects in a "high blame condition" above, there is a mysogynistic attitude that circulates among men, by and large in male-only environments, in which this blame condition is extremely high and reinforced. It is precisely that culture that IMO existed among the 12 men - and it existed publicly, so that they felt no shame in open admission of what they were doing.Whether innocently or otherwise, your argument accords with these ideologies of oppression, and that is the basis for the resistance you encounter.

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Where's this "culture" that's supposed to have told you and I that it's ok to rape? Because I've never seen it. I've never met anyone who's seen it.

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I genuinely think it is completely impossible for you to have not seen it, becuase it is so prevalent in our media. It is merely normalised, becuase our society is still highly misogynistic.This message has been edited by contracycle, 11-25-2004 11:19 AM

roxrkool- "my having martial arts training is not going to stop a man from raping me if he is bound and determined to do so. I did say learning to protect yourself is a good thing, but even that can only go so far. Even the skinniest guy is probably physically stronger than I am. Even with martial arts training, I can still be overpowered by sheer force."Intresting. Given this scenario [which I'm unsure if it is fictional or not] Have you ever studied submission wrestling? What about Judo? Perhaps you haven't heard of brazillian jui jitsu. All of these martial arts could prove useful in the secenario you just mentioned. I think that by "martial arts" you might have been talking about tae kwon do, a seriously under-effective and over-rated martial art in the U.S. Or maby karate...either way there are many ways that martial arts can become useful on the ground or in close quarters. While a gun needs to not only be ALWAYS available, the bearer of arms need to spend time TRAINING to learn how to use the tool effectively. If training is going to take place anyway it might as well be in the form of empty-handed fighting, if for no other reason than practability. Now, this scenario is a good example of how trust can develope because it is NATURAL. It is NATUARL and to exect people to live in an distrusting and ultimately UNNATURAL state is ludicrous...I continue to emphasize this point and I think many people see it my way. In fact I think roxrkool said it best:roxrkool- "I personally could not live a healthy, fulfilling life if I had to worry about being raped by every single man I meet. How would I work with men, then? How can I carry a gun and at the first inkling of threat, pull it out? How would he feel if he was only trying to kiss my neck or reaching over to take something out of the glove compartment and I pull out my gun and threaten to shoot his ass? Would YOU want to live in a world like that?"Hell no. I could imagine that, people wouldn't even bring up this topic..especially men...for fear we'd all get shot!

I don't understand what any of this has to do with anything currently under discussion. But I haven't seen it.Oh, I get it. Because you can't support your statement, I must be a liar. I guess you haven't actually read the thread. Almost nobody has agreed with this general case. The most strenuous objectors have been women, themselves. The purpose of this thread, in fact, was to explore exactly why the position you've erroneously described as "generally supported", in fact, isn't. I've never made this claim. Did you understand, then, what I've been asking in my last 2 posts to you? I guess not. I don't understand why that's a basis for objection, since I'm not making those arguments or defending those positions.