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Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Women's Reactions to Rape | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Taqless Member (Idle past 5914 days) Posts: 285 From: AZ Joined: |
Not just valid, but obvious, and the solution men would implement if the roles were reversed.
Before I make a statement are you suggesting that "the solution men would implement" is the right way?
The "root problem" is men raping women.
No, the root problem is the attitude/thinking behind the act.
There's nobody to be accountable but the rapists, and we already hold them accountable to the greatest degree we're able to..
I've already pointed out that the punishment for drugs and DWI is stricter that it is for crimes against women and children...so what you have written is not technically true.
A rape has already occured, according to the parameters of the study.
Well, that masks the number of rapes which then compounds any calculations made or based on said number..not good.
Did self-defense prevent greater injury?
What is "greater" injury? Greater than what exactly? This is a subjective parameter, and presumes to know what the attacker would have done IF the woman had done nothing.
It is ignorance that gives a false sense of security, and it is your position that stresses ignorance over preparedness.
As I have already pointed out to Worm...are you by default saying that a woman who does not know self-defense is doing "nothing"?
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Taqless Member (Idle past 5914 days) Posts: 285 From: AZ Joined: |
What false sence of security?
As I've clearly stated: Self-defense is NOT, in most situations, preventative!
I think I know what you are saying.."Men shouldn't do that sort of thing!"
No, it's not, I saying as a society we need to stop treating men as victims of their own bodies and set a good example by our actions.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Before I make a statement are you suggesting that "the solution men would implement" is the right way? I can't say that for sure, but the evidence suggests to me that yes, it would tend to discourage rapes.
Well, that masks the number of rapes which then compounds any calculations made or based on said number..not good. No, I disagree. If a man starts to rape you, but you manage to chase him off, he's still guilty of a sexual assualt. If he wasn't, we wouldn't be able to prosecute him.
What is "greater" injury? Greater than what exactly? Than what actually happened.
are you by default saying that a woman who does not know self-defense is doing "nothing"? Yes, but I expand "self-defense" to include things like avoiding poorly-lit areas, avoiding intoxication or impairement in unsafe areas, making your friends aware of where you are, etc. In other words, being aware of our surroundings and making sure that you have options if something bad happens. Actual physical combat prowess is simply one of those options.
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Taqless Member (Idle past 5914 days) Posts: 285 From: AZ Joined: |
I can't say that for sure, but the evidence suggests to me that yes, it would tend to discourage rapes.
However, this evidence you are mentioning does not support-hand-to-hand combat -gun toting -distrust of men Yes, but I expand "self-defense" to include things like avoiding poorly-lit areas, avoiding intoxication or impairement in unsafe areas, making your friends aware of where you are, etc. In other words, being aware of our surroundings and making sure that you have options if something bad happens. Actual physical combat prowess is simply one of those options. Well, at this juncture the "expanded" version is convenient for you since most of it is already in practice and taught. Which makes it ambiguous as to why you felt women were "doing nothing" before?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
However, this evidence you are mentioning does not support Well, I disagree. From the study:
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.vaw.umn.edu/documents/sexoff/sexoff.html#id2635993 Almost 20% of victims fought their rapist or succeeded in capturing him. Another 11% were able to scare their rapist off. Unfortunately the study does not go into more detail than that but it's safe to say that weapons or training or both almost certainly came into play for the majority of these incidents. And I don't think "distrust of men" is a self-defense tactic all by itself. It would be idiotic, for instance, to distrust a man but take no other action to prevent a sexual assault from him. It's quite disingeuous of you to misrepresent my position by suggesting that I view "distrust of men" as a solution in itself.
Well, at this juncture the "expanded" version is convenient for you since most of it is already in practice and taught. Perhaps, but what I'm asking is, why do they stop there? When a reasonable person can see that there are even more things you can do to be prepared?
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wormjitsu Inactive Member |
Tagless- "I saying as a society we need to stop treating men as victims of their own bodies and set a good example by our actions."
This is indeed an incredible task. If you look at history, attitudes take a LONG time to change. I wonder how you think in what way men are supposed to change their attitude and what method is supposed to effectively cause this to occur.
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wormjitsu Inactive Member |
BTW..I think that distrust in men is a very bad idea. I've seen women that distrust every man they come up against, and it often results in them emitting fearful vibes which makes them more of a target. Distrust is bad, it's not the same as a woman who is smart and aware of her surroundings.
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wormjitsu Inactive Member |
crashfrog- "Yes, but I expand "self-defense" to include things like avoiding poorly-lit areas, avoiding intoxication or impairement in unsafe areas, making your friends aware of where you are, etc. In other words, being aware of our surroundings and making sure that you have options if something bad happens. Actual physical combat prowess is simply one of those options."
I couldn't have said it any better myself, Crashfrog.Self defense is more than being able to defend yourself when someone is attacking you. It is being able to react before the attack starts. Anything from being with freinds in large numbers to shouting for help to just running can be a form of self defense.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: It's not "interpersonal friction" that would bother me. I already live with an underlying wariness of strangers on a gradient: people I don't know, men I don't know, men I know a little, men I know well. I don't want to lump all of them together, because that's not appropriate. I don't want to live in more distrust and more fear than I already have to, which is what you seem to be suggesting I do. Sort of an "Assume every man is a horrible monster and fear and hate him first, ask questions later." It's what would happen to ME that I wouldn't like, not other people.
quote: Wait, are you telling me that you would beat up your friends, or that they would attack you? I read this to my husband and he gave me a really funny look, and said, "I don't hang out with anybody who thinks about attacking me. If that was a thought I ever had about a person I knew, I wouldn't hang out with them. Why would I?" I asked him about the "should it become necessary" part of what you said, and he said, "Well, sure, if aliens invaded the Earth and took control of my friends and forced them to attack me, I would defend myself." Seriously, neither Zhimbo nor I know any men like you seem to be describing.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I already live with an underlying wariness of strangers on a gradient: people I don't know, men I don't know, men I know a little, men I know well. So change the gradient: Men who you're at the greatest statistical risk of being raped by, men who you're at less of a risk of being raped by, men you can trust not to rape you. I mean, it already sounds like you're on that gradient, you just have different terms for the categories.
Wait, are you telling me that you would beat up your friends, or that they would attack you? Yeah. And they me. Does that surprise you? For most of Western civilization, a man was not fully dressed without a sword, even if he lived far from any battlefront or border. Who did you think these men were expecting to fight? Each other. Even their friends. That's how men have lived for hundreds of years - prepared to do battle with each other when the "rules" told them they had to. Now, I'm not sure to the degree that the "rules" influence my behavior, or the behavior of my friends. It was hyperbole on my part to suggest that we would definately fight if the "rules" demanded it. Probably we wouldn't. Obviously, your husband and his friends have rightly relegated these rules to the dustbin of history. But I know that the rules are there; that's just how I was raised. And that's the way it is for my friends, too. We'd certainly feel like we were "supposed" to fight, if, say, my friend called my wife a slut or something. Would we? I hope not. But I'd be prepared to do it.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But that's just a verbal insult and hardly justification for any kind of physical violence. I mean, I am sitting here reading this and I really cannot believe that you and other people think that these "rules" are valid or appropriate in the least. Sure, Jim and I would both be angry, but grownups don't violently attack one another because they are angry over some verbal insult. I'm sorry Crash, but that seems like a sereiously juvenile schoolyard attitude. The only time violence would be appropriate is to defend oneself from a physical attack. In other words, when you have no other choice.
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contracycle Inactive Member |
quote: ... until you disarm them.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
But that's just a verbal insult and hardly justification for any kind of physical violence. For hundreds of years, though, it was. And it still feels like it would be, to me.
I mean, I am sitting here reading this and I really cannot believe that you and other people think that these "rules" are valid or appropriate in the least. Like I said, though, they were, for hundreds of years. Men dealt with it, somehow. Many men still feel the same way, and they still deal with it. Which was my point, in the first place.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
... until you disarm them. Indeed. Somehow, men have already managed to accomplish that. I'm simply suggesting we restore the balance of power.
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contracycle Inactive Member |
quote: I disagree; its merely a technical problem to be solved. As soon as you place the responsibility for rape on wonman being armed and trained to use those arms, you have made it clear that the only counter-argument to rape is violence; that rape must be considered a normal part of our social environment and women should, alone, simply prepare for the inevitability. That is not acceptable in my book; do we then start to discuss how hard she resisted, as well as how she was dressed, when deciding if an accusation of rape is a crime? And it is certianly not a viable suggestion as a solution to a social problem. You're basically saying "women, you're on your own, fight back or suffer." It places all responsibility onto the woman and alleviates me of responsibility for their actions. It's totally unacceptable.
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