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Author Topic:   Women's Reactions to Rape
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 1 of 235 (146282)
09-30-2004 7:47 PM


I'm trying hard not to be sexist, but I don't understand the way women react to rape.
Here's Rei from another thread:
Several people I've known have been raped - including a close friend who was raped by his cousin, and a former partner of mine who had been raped on two different occasions (one, she was drugged at a party; the other, when she was 14, she was attacked on the way home from a friend's house, and ended up pregnant; she starved herself until she miscarried to try and prevent her parents from finding out). Another friend of mine was driven off the road and raped (she has brain damage from the accident; she used to head a nonprofit, and now she can't even keep her house straight). Two months ago, I just found out that another one of my friends had been raped recently (I didn't press for any of the details).
Why don't more women carry guns?
Let's suppose, for a moment, that there exists a large, hairy, vicious predator. Like a kind of werewolf. It can become invisible at will and is capable of striking with incredible speed. It hunts by the smell of testosterone. As a result, the vast, vast majority of its victims are men.
Let us say that attempts to mask one's scent are ineffective. The beast is very quick and intelligent and more than capable of eluding law enforcement authorities. The animals are so prolific that, at this point, there's a one-in-three chance that a man will be victimized, possibly at the cost of his life, and certainly at the cost of grevious injury and mental distress.
What, then, would we predict the reaction of the male community would be?
a) Attempts to raise "awareness" of an issue that, as near as we can tell, everybody's already aware of. Is there any human being at all who hasn't either been raped or knows someone who has?
b) Attempts to "take back the night" by organizing groups of men to walk, unarmed, around areas most frequented by these vicious beasts.
c) A vast proliferation of high-powered firearms among men. Firearms would become a fashion statement; as required an accessory as a necktie or a wristwatch. Hundreds of men would be loaded for bear and trained to shoot accurately; while accidental shooting deaths might rise slightly, hundreds of slain beasts would be found each morning.
I don't understand why the response of women to the vast proliferation of crimes against their person is to shrug and say "I hope it doesn't happen to me". Why aren't the karate studios filled with women? Why doesn't Prada make a line of designer pistols for women? You should be able to buy switchblades in those restroom condom machines. You should be able to shop for handguns in Victoria's Secret. Self-defense kata should appear, in illustrated form, on the back of the Tampax box.
Debate, please? Why is the female reaction to the problem of rape so ineffectual?
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 09-30-2004 06:48 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 7:51 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 13 by Rei, posted 09-30-2004 8:52 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 16 by Silent H, posted 09-30-2004 9:24 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 20 by nator, posted 09-30-2004 11:45 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 26 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 10-01-2004 2:00 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 27 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 10-01-2004 2:03 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 30 by RAZD, posted 10-01-2004 2:31 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 83 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-02-2004 3:31 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 135 by Taqless, posted 11-18-2004 10:39 AM crashfrog has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 2 of 235 (146284)
09-30-2004 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
09-30-2004 7:47 PM


quote:
Why don't more women carry guns?
Because:
1) It's illegal in the UK
2) most rapes (like sexual abuse of children) are committed by people that women know and trust. Therefore in situations where a gun is not likely to be hand. In addition, the confusion of it being someone who is known and trusted to the women means that many are unable to process what is going on till it's too late. don't worry too much about the beast outside - worry about the one inside.
In addition, I *think* that the fast growing form of rape is via drugs, thus again a gun would be no use at all.
Sure there are perverts in bushing waiting to attack women but it's not as likely as the media would have you think*.
(In the same way that people in the UK have a massive fear of children being taken and murdered - the numbers have roughtly been the same for years but the awareness has raisen).
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 09-30-2004 06:54 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2004 7:47 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2004 8:00 PM CK has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 235 (146287)
09-30-2004 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by CK
09-30-2004 7:51 PM


It's illegal in the UK
Do you think that, perhaps, that puts women at risk?
At any rate, somehow your cops get by without guns, and I believe that its due to their intense hand-to-hand training. Why don't more women take advantage of that training?
most rapes (like sexual abuse of children) are committed by people that women know and trust.
If most men were attacked by people they knew and trusted, who suddenly turned into werewolves, do you think that men would not be armed, even when with those they trusted?
In addition, I *think* that the fast growing form of rape is via drugs, thus again a gun would be no use at all.
That still doesn't really explain why women don't carry them. Men would, even if the guns turned out to be useless. Men carried swords for about a hundred years after they lost any sort of combat usefulness.
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 09-30-2004 07:05 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 7:51 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 8:06 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 15 by purpledawn, posted 09-30-2004 9:12 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 235 by Rosie Cotton, posted 12-03-2004 8:28 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 4 of 235 (146289)
09-30-2004 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
09-30-2004 8:00 PM


quote:
At any rate, somehow your cops get by without guns, and I believe that its due to their intense hand-to-hand training.
Nothing at all to do with that (and I speak as someone who has worked with a number of the police forces in the UK), the vast majority of people just don't attempt to take the police on in combat.
quote:
Do you think that, perhaps, that puts women at risk?
Rather than allowing people easy access to deadly weapons? - Americans struggle to understand this - we have no liking or interest in guns, we don't want them for any purpose (well expect the army and certain sections of the police).
quote:
If most men were attacked by people they knew and trusted, who suddenly turned into werewolves, do you think that men would not be armed, even when with those they trusted?
What ? when you are in the bath? taking a shower? sleeping? when you are in bed with someone?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2004 8:00 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 09-30-2004 8:13 PM CK has not replied
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2004 8:20 PM CK has replied
 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2004 8:21 PM CK has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 235 (146290)
09-30-2004 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by CK
09-30-2004 8:06 PM


What ? when you are in the bath? taking a shower? sleeping? when you are in bed with someone?
Definitely yes for two of four and within reach for the other two.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 8:06 PM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by NosyNed, posted 09-30-2004 9:51 PM jar has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 6 of 235 (146294)
09-30-2004 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by CK
09-30-2004 8:06 PM


Nothing at all to do with that (and I speak as someone who has worked with a number of the police forces in the UK), the vast majority of people just don't attempt to take the police on in combat.
Why is that, do you think? The English are just better-behaved?
Rather than allowing people easy access to deadly weapons? - Americans struggle to understand this - we have no liking or interest in guns, we don't want them for any purpose (well expect the army and certain sections of the police).
And you think that, by virtue of magic clairvoyance, the police will contrive to be present in every situation where you would otherwise have been attacked?
What I struggle to understand is the mindset of someone who believes that the police will always be there to protect them.
What ? when you are in the bath? taking a shower? sleeping? when you are in bed with someone?
If I saw that I was at risk of being attacked, with no warning, in each of those places, yes. You bet your ass I would. If it seemed like anyone I knew could turn into a potential attacker, you bet your ass I'd have a gun at the ready.
Once Miromoto Musashi was taking one of his all-too-infrequent baths. (While famous for his skill at all edged weapons, he was not renown for his personal hygene.) His enemies contrived to attack him, 20-to-1, attacking from both doors of the small bathhouse, thinking to catch him unarmed.
Little did they realize that Musashi was bathing with his sword. He cut down half of them, and then cut his way out through the bathhouse wall.
Musashi fought over 60 duels in his lifetime and was never defeated. He lived to the ripe old age of.. I forget, but he was pretty old (and pretty ripe.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 8:06 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 8:22 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2004 8:23 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 7 of 235 (146295)
09-30-2004 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by CK
09-30-2004 8:06 PM


I think that girls should be taught at an early age how to kill somebody much larger than they are with their bare hands. I'm not a fan of guns, but I do think women should know how to defend themselves effectively.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 8:06 PM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2004 8:22 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 8 of 235 (146297)
09-30-2004 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by crashfrog
09-30-2004 8:20 PM


quote:
What I struggle to understand is the mindset of someone who believes that the police will always be there to protect them.
me too - you know anyone like that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2004 8:20 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2004 8:27 PM CK has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 9 of 235 (146298)
09-30-2004 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
09-30-2004 8:21 PM


Ok, that last reply said it was from Crashfrog, but it is really from me, Entomologista. This message is also from Entomologista; I'm not sure why I'm not showing up as myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2004 8:21 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 235 (146299)
09-30-2004 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by crashfrog
09-30-2004 8:20 PM


Look, CK, I realize that this must seem like stereotypical American gun fetishism/paranoia... but it's not paranoia when they're really out to get you.
Women are really being attacked. And it's not just one or two. It's almost every woman, it seems.
How many women have to be attacked before widespread proliferation of self-defense techniques stops being paranoid and becomes simple good sense?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2004 8:20 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 11 of 235 (146301)
09-30-2004 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by CK
09-30-2004 8:22 PM


me too - you know anyone like that?
According to you, everyone in the UK. Why else would you eschew self-defense in favor of the "pray to God that a cop is there" strategy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 8:22 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 8:31 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 12 of 235 (146303)
09-30-2004 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by crashfrog
09-30-2004 8:27 PM


how do you work that out? Just because we don't like guns doesn't mean that we don't believe in self-defense.
This is my last word on the matter - I've learnt from long internet experience that americans never get our views on guns and vis-versa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2004 8:27 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Rei, posted 09-30-2004 8:53 PM CK has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 13 of 235 (146316)
09-30-2004 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
09-30-2004 7:47 PM


Charles Knight took care of most of it for me.
1. Rape is generally not an expected thing. So, realistically, you would need to be armed at all times.
2. For most rapes, this would be completely irrelevant. Lets look at the subset that I presented:
Friend: It was his bloody cousin, for crying out loud. Neither were armed. The rape happened anyway. If everyone tended to carry weapons, every rapist would tend to carry weapons. (as an aside, before all this happened, the cousin was put in one of those camps to "reform" gay people after he came out to his parents as a minor; he came back really messed up).
Former partner, on the way home: Possibly, although she didn't know she was being attacked until she had a knife to her throat. More specifically, a 19 year old creep (who later was arrested for rape and attempted murder of his ex girlfriend, among other things) that she knew was standing on the side of the road as she passed him. He started to talk to her, she told him to go away, and he pulled a knife out and held it to her throat. Do you think a kid would have the sort of gun skills to pull a wild-west gun-from-the-holster-and-fire trick? Would your proposal be to keep a cocked gun in everyone's hands at all times?
Former partner, at the party: Obviously a gun would be irrelevant here. She was kind of dumb in that she accepted a drink from a stranger, but I doubt you'd propose killing all strangers at parties.
Friend, driven off the road: Seing as she was badly injured (I don't even know if she was conscious or just found out she was raped later at the hospital - I stopped asking questions once I found out why she was driven off the road), this obviously wouldn't be a help
My friend who was raped recently: it was date rape; that's all I know. I doubt a gun would have helped.
Furthermore, the obsession with so many people for using guns to "defend themselves" boggles my mind. You're far more likely to be killed or lose a family member to your own gun than to a stranger's. Furthermore, once someone brings a gun into play, someone is likely to get shot - be it you or the other person.

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2004 7:47 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2004 11:52 PM Rei has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 14 of 235 (146318)
09-30-2004 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by CK
09-30-2004 8:31 PM


Hey, don't cast all of us Americans into the same category! What's next - pretending that we all like the cowboy with a jesus complex that's running our country?
I swear, I was born in the wrong bloody country
This message has been edited by Rei, 09-30-2004 07:56 PM

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 8:31 PM CK has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 15 of 235 (146330)
09-30-2004 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
09-30-2004 8:00 PM


quote:
intense hand-to-hand training
I would have prefered self defense in HS gym instead of the parallel bars. Much more interesting.
Wouldn't hand to hand be something that needs to be used or practiced to be useful under stressful situations? Muscle memory and all.
The same with a gun. Unless we continue to use it and practice, it may not be helpful in a stressful situation.
Besides, if we are attacked by someone we trusted, they would know about the gun or if we had self-defense training. They would know our strengths and weaknesses.
When men carried guns and swords, did they always keep them strapped on when around friends and family or in the home? Did they expect to use them against women friends they trusted?
We can't know the person is a "werewolf" until he changes, then it may be too late.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2004 8:00 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
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