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Author Topic:   What would your doctor say?
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 151 of 204 (337348)
08-02-2006 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by iano
08-01-2006 8:40 PM


Re: touchy
quote:
- my morals are relative
...just as yours are.
quote:
- I eat, drink and be merry for die I know I shall"
...just as you will. You may believe in an afterlife but you don't know you are going anywhere. Nobody does.
quote:
- my arguments will tend to oppose those of the "God exists" side.
Yes, because there is no evidence of the supernatural. I am open to evidence, however.
You, on the other hand, are not open in the same way but in the contrary. You will discount any argument that might cause you to doubt, no matter how strong.
quote:
I will find I am, by and large, in agreement with mainline atheistic thinking.
Exactly what is "mainline Atheistic thinking"?
quote:
- I will (if secretly - for only an agnostic can answer this for themselves) suppose that if there is a God then "I'm not such a bad chap, God will understand"
...which is just as valid as any of your beliefs, both being based upon supposition and subjective imagination.
quote:
- from the above: reason is the way to truth. I will rely on myself (very atheistic-think)
Yes, reason is the way to truth about the natural world.
If it is the way to Truth, I don't know.
You believe that belief in the supernatural is the way to Truth, but you don't know.
quote:
- everytime I come to mystery I will tend to suspend my question until a naturalistic solution comes along. Goddidit is athema to me
Yes.
Seems to have worked really well in the course of human events up until now, don'tcha think, or do you suggest that we continue to believe that the sun is driven across the sky in a firey chariot?
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by iano, posted 08-01-2006 8:40 PM iano has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 152 of 204 (337349)
08-02-2006 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by robinrohan
08-01-2006 9:04 PM


Re: touchy
quote:
The point is that many will say they believe in God, when under duress, even if they don't. I would do that too.
Why are you insinuating "duress" into the picture?
What, do you think that the researchers, when collecting the data, made the people, either in the general popularion or in the prisons, announce their religious affiliation to everyone else?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by robinrohan, posted 08-01-2006 9:04 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by robinrohan, posted 08-02-2006 8:51 AM nator has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 204 (337359)
08-02-2006 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by nator
08-02-2006 7:04 AM


Re: touchy
Why are you insinuating "duress" into the picture?
Being in prison is duress enough. You watch what you say if you want to get out of there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by nator, posted 08-02-2006 7:04 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by nator, posted 08-02-2006 5:27 PM robinrohan has replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 154 of 204 (337365)
08-02-2006 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by RickJB
08-02-2006 4:08 AM


"God" and the IDEA of God could be different.
Whether or not God exists, both atheists and agnostics reject any notions of submission to God.
Both atheism and agnosticism are continuums so I don't think you can generalize in this way. Each person can only speak for their own beliefs. For example I am an atheist if we are talking about an omniscient, omnipotent God that intervenes as an OUTSIDE force in human history. I am a believer in a God who is present in humans and motivates humans to do good. I am an agnostic about the nature and extent of God'presence in animals and the rest of nature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by RickJB, posted 08-02-2006 4:08 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by RickJB, posted 08-02-2006 1:18 PM deerbreh has not replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4991 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 155 of 204 (337395)
08-02-2006 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by deerbreh
08-02-2006 9:29 AM


Re: "God" and the IDEA of God could be different.
deerbreh writes:
I don't think you can generalize in this way
Well I agree it was a generalization.
My point was simply that those groups are less likely to lead their lives according to the man-made doctrines attributed to a God whose existence is either false, or unknowable.
I should really have added some form of qualification.
It is interesting, however, how many people who identify themselves as non-religious will nonetheless freely entertain their own notions of God. God is less a figure of authority and more a flight of their own imagination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by deerbreh, posted 08-02-2006 9:29 AM deerbreh has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 156 of 204 (337458)
08-02-2006 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by robinrohan
08-02-2006 8:51 AM


Re: touchy
Why are you insinuating "duress" into the picture?
quote:
Being in prison is duress enough. You watch what you say if you want to get out of there.
Like I said:
What, do you think that the researchers, when collecting the data, made the people, either in the general popularion or in the prisons, announce their religious affiliation to everyone else?
Why do you think that someone would give false information if it isn't going to be shared with anyone else? I do not know for sure but it is likely that none of them even gave their names.
But let's say you are right, and the self-reporting by those in prison is inaccurate. Are you claiming that people in the general population are under some "duress", too, so their self reporting of religious identification cannot be believed, either?
And, since you have continued to ignore these questions, I'll continue to repeat them:
Besides that, are you saying that no one is to be believed when they tell another what their religious identification is?
For example, when you say that you do not believe in God, you are answering automatically and it is meaningless? And when Faith says that she is a Christian, she is not to be believed, and that it is meaningles that she states this?
Why, then, is there a difference in the percentage of Christians and Atheists in the prison population compared to the general population?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by robinrohan, posted 08-02-2006 8:51 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by robinrohan, posted 08-02-2006 5:33 PM nator has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 204 (337460)
08-02-2006 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by nator
08-02-2006 5:27 PM


Re: touchy
Are you claiming that people in the general population are under some "duress", too, so their self reporting of religious identification cannot be believed, either?
Well, I certainly would not discuss my nihilism publicly, such as at work. Yes, there is a little pressure.
Besides that, are you saying that no one is to be believed when they tell another what their religious identification is?
No, I'm not saying that.
For example, when you say that you do not believe in God, you are answering automatically and it is meaningless? And when Faith says that she is a Christian, she is not to be believed, and that it is meaningles that she states this?
No, but neither of us is in prison, unless Faith got picked up today.
Why, then, is there a difference in the percentage of Christians and Atheists in the prison population compared to the general population?
The population in prison is skewed toward the uneducated. Uneducated people tend to make automatic statements. Moreover, prison is a special place where one is watched.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by nator, posted 08-02-2006 5:27 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by nator, posted 08-02-2006 6:08 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 160 by nator, posted 08-02-2006 6:14 PM robinrohan has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 158 of 204 (337480)
08-02-2006 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by robinrohan
08-02-2006 5:33 PM


Re: touchy
quote:
Well, I certainly would not discuss my nihilism publicly, such as at work. Yes, there is a little pressure.
Would you feel pressure to lie on an anonymous demographics form?
Besides that, are you saying that no one is to be believed when they tell another what their religious identification is?
quote:
No, I'm not saying that.
Well, can we believe people when they self report their religious identification or not? You said that such data was worthless.
Why, then, is there a difference in the percentage of Christians and Atheists in the prison population compared to the general population?
quote:
The population in prison is skewed toward the uneducated. Uneducated people tend to make automatic statements.
Says who?
Are you saying that people in prison are too dumb to know what religion they are?
Got any real data to back that rather remarkable claim, or is this another one of those things that you, robin, just "know"?
However, you are almost there with me...
Uneducated people tend to be more religious, and, specifically in our country, Christian.
So, the prison population should be skewed towards Christians and should be higher than that found in the general population.
Guess what? That's what we see.
quote:
Moreover, prison is a special place where one is watched.
But the general population is not. What about those numbers? Are they worthless?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by robinrohan, posted 08-02-2006 5:33 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by robinrohan, posted 08-02-2006 6:16 PM nator has replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4991 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 159 of 204 (337482)
08-02-2006 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by iano
08-01-2006 8:40 PM


Re: touchy
iano writes:
- everytime I come to mystery I will tend to suspend my question until a naturalistic solution comes along. Goddidit is athema to me
Tend to suspend the question? What does that mean? Surely you mean "attempt to answer"?
Also, a "naturalist solution" as opposed to what? A spiritual solution? Will faith make an aircraft fly? Will faith make your motorcycle run? The fact that "naturalist solutions" HAVE been found must surely validate empirical methods, don't you agree?
So what are you arguing against? All of science? Just remember that if the scientists who first identified electromagnetism went only in search of "spiritual answers" then you wouldn't be posting forum messages on a computer powered by a national grid....
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by iano, posted 08-01-2006 8:40 PM iano has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 160 of 204 (337484)
08-02-2006 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by robinrohan
08-02-2006 5:33 PM


Re: touchy
Robin, it is true that there is often pressure to identify with one group or another, especially in certain circumstances, such as in prison.
Do you think that scientists are so stupid and clueless that they don't know about this, and that they don't design experiments to minimize these kinds of things?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by robinrohan, posted 08-02-2006 5:33 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by robinrohan, posted 08-02-2006 6:24 PM nator has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 204 (337486)
08-02-2006 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by nator
08-02-2006 6:08 PM


Re: touchy
Uneducated people tend to be more religious, and, specifically in our country, Christian.
In name, yes. It doesn't mean much for somebody who's never given it a moment's thought.
In our country, it is considered GOOD to be religious in some sense of that word. So they pick up on that and say they are religious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by nator, posted 08-02-2006 6:08 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by nator, posted 08-02-2006 6:31 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 204 (337489)
08-02-2006 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by nator
08-02-2006 6:14 PM


Re: touchy
Do you think that scientists are so stupid and clueless that they don't know about this, and that they don't design experiments to minimize these kinds of things?
No, but this matter is not something that can be calculated scientifically. It all depends on what one means by "religious."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by nator, posted 08-02-2006 6:14 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by nator, posted 08-02-2006 6:41 PM robinrohan has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 163 of 204 (337494)
08-02-2006 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by robinrohan
08-02-2006 6:16 PM


Re: touchy
Uneducated people tend to be more religious, and, specifically in our country, Christian.
quote:
In name, yes. It doesn't mean much for somebody who's never given it a moment's thought.
How do you know that they have never given it a moment's thought?
quote:
In our country, it is considered GOOD to be religious in some sense of that word. So they pick up on that and say they are religious.
Again, how do you know this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by robinrohan, posted 08-02-2006 6:16 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by robinrohan, posted 08-02-2006 6:33 PM nator has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 204 (337496)
08-02-2006 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by nator
08-02-2006 6:31 PM


Re: touchy
Again, how do you know this?
Experience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by nator, posted 08-02-2006 6:31 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by nator, posted 08-02-2006 6:47 PM robinrohan has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 165 of 204 (337502)
08-02-2006 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by robinrohan
08-02-2006 6:24 PM


Re: touchy
quote:
No, but this matter is not something that can be calculated scientifically. It all depends on what one means by "religious."
Robin.
The scientific question is, "What religious group do people in certain populations self-identifywith?"
It doesn't matter how anybody else but the people being asked the question define "Buddhist" or "Jewish" or "Catholic", etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by robinrohan, posted 08-02-2006 6:24 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by robinrohan, posted 08-02-2006 6:44 PM nator has replied

  
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