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Author Topic:   What would your doctor say?
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 136 of 204 (337232)
08-01-2006 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by RickJB
08-01-2006 11:53 AM


Re: touchy
In may ways the agnostic position is really just a debating defense.
That's not the case for me. It is simply a reflection of my personal thoughts on the question of whether there is a God or not.
In my teen years I was an atheist and was convinced there could not possibly be a God.
As I moved into my twenties I decided it was arrogant to think I could know that with such certainty - but as I still saw no evidence for a God (especially the Judeo-Christian God) that left agnosticism as the only viable option.
I agree though with whoever mentioned earlier that in practical terms there is little, if any, difference between my being agnostic or atheist.

Oops! Wrong Planet

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 137 of 204 (337234)
08-01-2006 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by RickJB
08-01-2006 10:57 AM


It's either A or B to an A
Hi, Rick.
There's is no point in my correcting Ian again, since his response has become mere repetition.
Agnostics are not atheists for all practical purposes, and agnosticism is not a debating stance--at least not to this agnostic.
To Ian, it's a matter of "us and everybody else," and for his purposes there is no point (or rhetorical profit) in making any further distinctions. To a bird, foxes and cats may seem one and the same for all practical purposes, since neither flies and both eat birds--but they are not, in fact, the same.
Here is my most recent response to Ian's insistence that cats are actually foxes.
As to the topic (remember that?), my doctor would say, "Oi vey! So... what'd He say?"

God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, ”Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It’s yours.’
--Ann Coulter, Fox-TV: Hannity & Colmes, 20 Jun 01
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 138 of 204 (337245)
08-01-2006 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by iano
08-01-2006 11:39 AM


Re: touchy
An agnostic is an athiest for all practical purposes.
It must be great to know what everyone else is thinking. Makes all of that conversation and debate completely unnecessary. Not to mention how much simpler the world is when everyone is in their neat little boxes - Christians/atheists, Creationists/Darwinists, Republicans/Democrats, Conservatives/Liberals. Good people/evil people, etc.
Edited by deerbreh, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by iano, posted 08-01-2006 11:39 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by iano, posted 08-01-2006 8:28 PM deerbreh has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 139 of 204 (337290)
08-01-2006 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by robinrohan
08-01-2006 10:31 AM


Re: touchy
quote:
I know this from my wide experience of human nature from all walks of life.
Oh, so you just know.
Why on earth do we bother to carefully collect religious demographic data when robin can just tell us that it's all meaningless.
quote:
Many people, if asked, will say they believe in God, but this so-called belief does not affect their lives one iota. They live as though god did not exist.
How they act is completely irrelevant what they believe, so this argument is irrelevant.
quote:
It sounds better (in our culture) to say you believe in God.
I agree, which is why the percentage range of Atheist is so large. Somewhere around 13% of people say that they have no religious affiliation and do not consider themselves spiritual, yet they do not classify themselves as Atheists or Agnostics.
However, you haven't answered my questions.
Are you saying that no one is to be believed when they state their religious affiliation?
You also still haven't accounted for the discrepancy in the numbers.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 08-01-2006 8:58 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 140 of 204 (337293)
08-01-2006 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by iano
08-01-2006 12:20 PM


Re: touchy
quote:
Agnosticism: the philosophical equivilent of bisexuality: you can have it any which way you like
Wrong.
Agnosticism: the only consistent, honest conclusion one can come to on the subject of the supernatural, namely, "I don't know."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by iano, posted 08-01-2006 12:20 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by iano, posted 08-01-2006 8:40 PM nator has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 141 of 204 (337295)
08-01-2006 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by deerbreh
08-01-2006 2:31 PM


Re: touchy
It must be great to know what everyone else is thinking.
Its not quite as complex as you make it seem. It is fairly black and white. For God/against God. In Adam/In Christ. Saved/Not (yet and possibly not ever) saved. Christian/non-Christian. Etc.
Now if that is the case then it there isn't as much diversity as you might think. Islam, Atheism, Hinduism, Roman Catholicism, Agnosticism. All the same side of the very same coin. All sharing the same features in essence: denial of God as is revealed
Arrogant, exclusive and extreme? That is one logical possibility. The other is that it is true. And if it is true, it will sound very arrogant, exclusive and extreme. Sounding arrogant, exclusive and extreme is patently not a measure to be trusted in any objective sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by deerbreh, posted 08-01-2006 2:31 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by deerbreh, posted 08-01-2006 10:28 PM iano has not replied
 Message 150 by RickJB, posted 08-02-2006 4:18 AM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 142 of 204 (337296)
08-01-2006 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by nator
08-01-2006 8:21 PM


Re: touchy
Agnosticism: the only consistent, honest conclusion one can come to on the subject of the supernatural, namely, "I don't know."
"And whilst I occupy that postion"
- my morals are relative
- I eat, drink and be merry for die I know I shall"
- my arguments will tend to oppose those of the "God exists" side. I will find I am, by and large, in agreement with mainline atheistic thinking.
- I will (if secretly - for only an agnostic can answer this for themselves) suppose that if there is a God then "I'm not such a bad chap, God will understand"
- from the above: reason is the way to truth. I will rely on myself (very atheistic-think)
- everytime I come to mystery I will tend to suspend my question until a naturalistic solution comes along. Goddidit is athema to me
And so forth...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by nator, posted 08-01-2006 8:21 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by deerbreh, posted 08-01-2006 10:33 PM iano has not replied
 Message 151 by nator, posted 08-02-2006 6:59 AM iano has not replied
 Message 159 by RickJB, posted 08-02-2006 6:12 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 143 of 204 (337300)
08-01-2006 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by nator
08-01-2006 8:18 PM


Re: touchy
Why on earth do we bother to carefully collect religious demographic data when robin can just tell us that it's all meaningless.
Robin is a nihilist. The book of Ecclesiastes is his Bible.
Or didn't you know. Its a worldview and all are (in this democratic age) entitled to their worldview (or didn't you know)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by robinrohan, posted 08-01-2006 9:04 PM iano has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 204 (337302)
08-01-2006 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by iano
08-01-2006 8:58 PM


Re: touchy
Robin is a nihilist
The point is that many will say they believe in God, when under duress, even if they don't. I would do that too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 08-01-2006 8:58 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 152 by nator, posted 08-02-2006 7:04 AM robinrohan has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 145 of 204 (337303)
08-01-2006 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by robinrohan
08-01-2006 9:04 PM


Re: touchy
I know. Even John A. Davison put "God bless you" on his 'elect-me-for-governor' manifesto.
Its hard to believe isn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by robinrohan, posted 08-01-2006 9:04 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 146 of 204 (337315)
08-01-2006 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by iano
08-01-2006 8:28 PM


Or you don't know what you don't know.
Now if that is the case then it there isn't as much diversity as you might think. Islam, Atheism, Hinduism, Roman Catholicism, Agnosticism. All the same side of the very same coin. All sharing the same features in essence: denial of God as is revealed
You really don't know what you are talking about. It is hard to know where to begin with someone who would lump all of these different religions and philosophies together as one and the same. And you really do not understand agnostism at all. It is not a religion and neither is atheism.
Arrogant, exclusive and extreme? That is one logical possibility. The other is that it is true. And if it is true, it will sound very arrogant, exclusive and extreme. Sounding arrogant, exclusive and extreme is patently not a measure to be trusted in any objective sense.
You left out one distinct possibility, that you are an uneducated person in philosophy and religion who does not know what you don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by iano, posted 08-01-2006 8:28 PM iano has not replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 147 of 204 (337316)
08-01-2006 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by iano
08-01-2006 8:40 PM


I rest my case - You don;t know what agnosticism is.
"And whilst I occupy that postion"
- my morals are relative
- I eat, drink and be merry for die I know I shall"
- my arguments will tend to oppose those of the "God exists" side. I will find I am, by and large, in agreement with mainline atheistic thinking.
- I will (if secretly - for only an agnostic can answer this for themselves) suppose that if there is a God then "I'm not such a bad chap, God will understand"
- from the above: reason is the way to truth. I will rely on myself (very atheistic-think)
- everytime I come to mystery I will tend to suspend my question until a naturalistic solution comes along. Goddidit is athema to me
I don;t know what you are describing but it is not agnosticism. It is your cartoon version of agnosticism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by iano, posted 08-01-2006 8:40 PM iano has not replied

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 148 of 204 (337323)
08-01-2006 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by riVeRraT
08-01-2006 7:49 AM


Re: evil
No, you can hear from God. God always speaks. But we have wax in our ears so that we selectively avoid God.

This message is a reply to:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 149 of 204 (337342)
08-02-2006 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by iano
08-01-2006 12:20 PM


Re: touchy
iano writes:
...it is usually the believers who get the bumps on their head
"I don't know" is a perfectly logical (albeit unexciting) position....
But I think the real divide between believers and non-believers often comes not with regard to the very existence of God, but to whether his will (whatever form of religion it may manifest as) should be taken into account if he does exist.
Whether or not God exists, both atheists and agnostics reject any notions of submission to God. Even if God does exist, I see no reason to live my life as his subject in accordance with ideas attributed (by humans) to him.

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Replies to this message:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 150 of 204 (337343)
08-02-2006 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by iano
08-01-2006 8:28 PM


Re: touchy
iano writes:
Now if that is the case then it there isn't as much diversity as you might think. Islam, Atheism, Hinduism, Roman Catholicism, Agnosticism. All the same side of the very same coin. All sharing the same features in essence: denial of God as is revealed.
Arrogant, exclusive and extreme? That is one logical possibility. The other is that it is true.
Your two "logical possibilites" are not mutually exclusive - you tellingly chose to leave out the word "false"!
Your assertion could be true. It could also be false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by iano, posted 08-01-2006 8:28 PM iano has not replied

  
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