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Author Topic:   artificial coral reefs
macnietspingal
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 11 (352051)
09-25-2006 9:18 AM


Artificial Reefs
===================================================================
There are different ways to approach discussions about evolution/creation. One is to look up, the other is to look down. I saw the National Geographic doc on artificial islands. I first felt contempt for this. I asked myself why all this tremendous expense for building shelters. I didn't learn anything I didn't already know about water power. Then I remember now these words about disturbing the natural coral reefs. They said "suddenly they realized that the opposite was happening". I think that's an important contribution to my knowledgebase.
So I googled and found out this. In fact it seems this is a very exciting subject, new and full of potential with respect to evolution/creation. We can even see it happen on a vacation. I suspect all sorts of surprises might evolve because of this aspect of evolution. Unlike the documentary, Dubai is presented here as a theme park.
UnderwaterTimes | Dubai to Build Massive Artificial Ree
I might add that this site itself is a whole new part of my own personal "home schooling".
In addition from the Britannica: on "evolution"
=================================================
Introduction
evolution
The diversity of the living world is staggering. More than 2,000,000 existing species of plants and animals have been named and described; many more remain to be discovered”from 10,000,000 to 30,000,000 according to some estimates. What is impressive is not just the numbers but also the incredible heterogeneity in size, shape, and way of life: from lowly bacteria, measuring less than one-thousandth of a millimetre in diameter, to the stately sequoias of California, rising 300 feet (100 metres) above the ground and weighing several thousand tons; from bacteria living in the hot springs of Yellowstone National Park at temperatures near the boiling point of water to fungi and algae thriving on the ice masses of Antarctica and in saline pools at ’9 F (’23 C); and from the strange wormlike creatures discovered in dark ocean depths at thousands of feet below the surface to spiders and larkspur plants existing on Mt. Everest more than 19,868 feet above sea level.
The virtually infinite variations on life are the fruit of the evolutionary process. All living creatures are related by descent from common ancestors. Humans and other mammals are descended from shrewlike creatures that lived more than 150,000,000 years ago; mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, and fishes share as ancestors aquatic worms that lived 600,000,000 years ago; all plants and animals are derived from bacteria-like microorganisms that originated more than 3,000,000,000 years ago. Biological evolution is a process of descent with modification. Lineages of organisms change through generations; diversity arises because the lineages that descend from common ancestors diverge through time.
"evolution."Encyclopædia Britannica. 2006. Encyclopædia Britannica 2006 Ultimate Reference Suite DVD 25 Sept. 2006 .
==================================
Doesn't this point to evolution of human beings having started in the oceans? Now with the new technology of artificial reefs, will this help us? Is it economical to support the construction of artifiical reefs around the USA to help us with understanding evolution. They are tagging all the different specimens in the oceans as it is. Wouldn't it make sense to have USA ocean laboratories around the Atlantic and the Pacific Oceans for aid to global knowledge about evolution. It could be a Western Hemisphere project with Canada and Pan America. It would also be a fun vacation with focus on evolution. it also would greatly expand the intellect of every USA citizen together with the whole Western Hemisphere. French, Spanish, English using the same vocabulary in the great evolution/creation topic.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 09-25-2006 9:57 AM macnietspingal has replied

AdminQuetzal
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 11 (352054)
09-25-2006 9:30 AM


Topic Promoted
Although the OP above remains somewhat disjointed, macnientspingal has made a valiant effort to clean up the original OP here. In the interests of encouraging diversity among our participants, and based on the possibility of some interesting discussion generated by the concept of artificial reef construction and its implications for evolutionary theory and studies, I have taken the unusual step of promoting a topic that may or may not be discussable. I ask all interested participants to engage this topic on that basis.
macnientspingal: I am hoping you will be able to further develop your thesis in a logical fashion. I'd like to suggest that you take a gander at the Style Guides for EvC (link in my signature block), as well as peruse some of the Post of the Month nominations as a way of improving future submissions. Consider this a "one-off" favor.

"Here come da Judge" - Flip Wilson
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  • jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 3 of 11 (352057)
    09-25-2006 9:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by macnietspingal
    09-25-2006 9:18 AM


    we have been building artificial reefs forever
    The idea of creating artificial reefs is a good one but not new in anyway. ver since the first passenger threw something overboard or the first vessel sank, man has been creating artificial reefs.
    Here is a link to some of the information on Georgias Artificial Reef Program.
    One thing that folk should remember is that while the base for a reef may well be artificial, the actual growth on the reef is entirely natural. The creatures that congregate, the things that grow on the reef are the same things one would find on a naturally occuring reef in the same location.
    Some of the things we used over the years included NYC Subway cars, surplus Sherman Tanks, vessels, rubble from demolition of an old bridge as well as designed reef balls and cones. There was also an active program on design and effectiveness of various materials and arrangements.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by macnietspingal, posted 09-25-2006 9:18 AM macnietspingal has replied

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     Message 4 by macnietspingal, posted 09-25-2006 11:03 AM jar has not replied

    macnietspingal
    Inactive Member


    Message 4 of 11 (352073)
    09-25-2006 11:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 3 by jar
    09-25-2006 9:57 AM


    Re: we have been building artificial reefs forever
    That is the kind of information I need in order to express what I "imagined" when I first got introduced to this subject last week. The fact that these scientists are spending their lives to understand how to build artificial islands and expected that they might disrupt the ecology and discovered the opposite shows me that global scientific knowledge is not even. Yes, calling them "artificial" reefs may be misleading. Doesn't this give a feeling of "immediacy" in evolution?
    Can you help us in being more rigorous about tying all this in evolution vs creation? An entertaining image comes to my mind. I used to deposit crab pots in the inlet to the Chesapeake Bay in Crisfield MD. If I knew then, 50 years ago, what I know now about "life", I would have enjoyed the experience even more. There was this clinging "stuff" and now with the "genome project" it's "life".
    So I just looked into my Britannica dvd which is entirely on my hard disk and found out I shouldn't be humiliated because I don't know much about this subject. Explaining DNA with respect to H20 may be a useful approach to even discuss with creationist education.
    =============
    The outstanding feature of the Earth as a planet is the presence of liquid water. Water is vital not only for the biosphere but also for the geologic processes of erosion, transport, and deposition that shape the Earth's surface. Yet, if the Earth were closer to the Sun, the water would be vaporized; if farther, it would turn to ice. Two-thirds of the terrestrial surface is covered by oceans. It was long thought that the continents, constituting the remaining one-third of the surface, had been fixed in position throughout the Earth's history. Gradually some Earth scientists dared to suggest that there had been major continental displacements, and finally, during the 1960s, investigators developed the full picture of seafloor spreading and plate tectonics. The continents, though constantly in motion, are in fact the oldest portions of the Earth's surface, for the seafloor is created at ridges and consumed at trenches on a geologically short time scale. Other planets, notably Mars and Venus, have surface features that suggest some elements of plate tectonics, but none is known to be undergoing the constant rejuvenation of the surface as is the Earth.
    ==========
    Can I use just this simplistically to say it supports a theory that all "life" began in water? Therefore, to understand all evolution, we can simply start in our families experiment with our kids simply using H2O? Even in kindergarten they should start this way to explain evolution. Perhaps create "reefs" in your backyard? Not artificial reefs because as if my perception of your contribution is correct, then there is no such thing as an artificial reef.
    Because of the creationists use of Noah's Flood, I feel it's necessary to actually locate the source of this creationist theory. It's the world of the Medterranean and that's all there is to the "world" at that time?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by jar, posted 09-25-2006 9:57 AM jar has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 5 by nwr, posted 09-25-2006 12:24 PM macnietspingal has replied

    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 6408
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005
    Member Rating: 5.1


    Message 5 of 11 (352091)
    09-25-2006 12:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 4 by macnietspingal
    09-25-2006 11:03 AM


    Re: we have been building artificial reefs forever
    I'm not sure what is your point here.
    As jar says, we have been creating artificial reefs for a very long time. It is well known that this can alter natural habitats, and can alter ocean current flows. Sometimes these changes will provide new habitats, sometimes they might destroy old habitats. It isn't always easy to predict what will be the effect.
    Can you help us in being more rigorous about tying all this in evolution vs creation?
    Personally, I don't think this has much at all to do with the evolution vs. creation debate. But you started the topic. Why don't you tell us why you think it is relevant to the debate.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by macnietspingal, posted 09-25-2006 11:03 AM macnietspingal has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by macnietspingal, posted 09-26-2006 12:13 PM nwr has replied

    macnietspingal
    Inactive Member


    Message 6 of 11 (352385)
    09-26-2006 12:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
    09-25-2006 12:24 PM


    Re: we have been building artificial reefs forever
    Well, I don't understand the creationist debate at all. I never did my whole life. I read the Torah Scrolls in Hebrew too. I simply don't think the Torah Scrolls are the words of God. I am scared of people who do.
    The way I understand the Torah Scrolls is that there were these semitic tribes in the the Mediterranean/Persian Gulf/etc. area who started talking to each other about all the stories of how they came to be. So they collected them in a way to make sense of all the knowledge available at that time. Their entire world was the geography we are fighting in right now. That was it. People sacrificed their children to these many gods. So they created a substitute Y'H'W'H to get all those meddling gods out of the way of analyzing their own human condition.
    So for me the Torah Scrolls dealt with Creation/Evolution debate the best way they could back then and got down to the business of analyzing family life and observing human organization. Like Hitler said, about dealing with struggling to live equitably on this planet. Without this kind of analysis, we would not be dealing with evolution at all. We would be all pagans. And just the other day, the Jewish World Review featured an article that agrees that the Judaism is not a religion.
    So are we only dealing with New Testament and the Koran when we deal with creationism in the first place. I believe it's true that Judaism doesn't really deal with "faith" as in heaven/hell, Satan/Devil.
    For me there's no debate. The Torah Scrolls agree with evolution. For me they started the whole subject in the first place by replacing Paganism long before there was a New Testament.
    It really scares me that young minds are being brought up to believe the Bible is the word of some mysterious thing called "God" and they try to make me respect that. I don't. Why should I? I believe we all came from Hydrogen. I also believe that it all started because there is H20 on this planet for some strange reason. Evolution started with one cell animals in petrie dishes
    Actually most clergy would have job security because their education makes them experts in ancinet history, psychiatry, social science. Plus foreign languages and cultures This is the only way I can debate. I want medicine to be based on real science and that starts with this debate.
    Do you think people are afraid that the economy would be hurt if we didn't have "Christmas"? I think so. However, we could substitute "Solstice" for "Christmas" and it rhymes and it's more truthful in the very first place. In one forum when I suggested this, the Pagans were upset. They said I was stealing their religion and showing disrespect for their religion
    I might point to Maccabees IV to give you an idea of the basis of how I think about this debate. That's how my endocrine system works.
    Do the creationists think their children are born with a mature brain? Do they know that their own children's brain evolves for 12 years after being ejected from the womb? So aren't these parents being "Gods" themselves? I think so. At least accoding to a belief in a God of Heaven and Hell.
    So it's new to me to enter a discussion of evolution with respect to the Earth being one huge collection of petrie dishes which was brought to my brain immediately with the suggestion that we get rid of the word "artificial" . That immediately redirected me because I could draw upon memories of my own observations. As I think the Britannica pointed out, this is a fairly recent direction in the subject of evolution/creation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by nwr, posted 09-25-2006 12:24 PM nwr has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 7 by AdminAsgara, posted 09-26-2006 12:43 PM macnietspingal has not replied
     Message 8 by nwr, posted 09-26-2006 12:59 PM macnietspingal has replied

    AdminAsgara
    Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
    Posts: 2073
    From: The Universe
    Joined: 10-11-2003


    Message 7 of 11 (352395)
    09-26-2006 12:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 6 by macnietspingal
    09-26-2006 12:13 PM


    Re: we have been building artificial reefs forever
    macnietspingal, the forum your thread has been posted in is Biological Evolution. This was due to the fact that your OP was a discussion on artificial coral reefs.
    The post I am replying to has nothing to do with this and in fact nothing to do with the science side of this board. If you would like to discuss the Torah scrolls, this is NOT the place.

    AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by macnietspingal, posted 09-26-2006 12:13 PM macnietspingal has not replied

    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 6408
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005
    Member Rating: 5.1


    Message 8 of 11 (352402)
    09-26-2006 12:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 6 by macnietspingal
    09-26-2006 12:13 PM


    Re: we have been building artificial reefs forever
    The way I understand the Torah Scrolls is that there were these semitic tribes in the the Mediterranean/Persian Gulf/etc. area who started talking to each other about all the stories of how they came to be. So they collected them in a way to make sense of all the knowledge available at that time.
    This is a very sensible view, in my opinion.
    What I don't understand, is how you are connecting this to "artificial coral reefs", which are what we should be discussing in this thread.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by macnietspingal, posted 09-26-2006 12:13 PM macnietspingal has replied

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     Message 9 by macnietspingal, posted 09-28-2006 6:31 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied
     Message 10 by macnietspingal, posted 09-28-2006 8:51 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

    macnietspingal
    Inactive Member


    Message 9 of 11 (352757)
    09-28-2006 6:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 8 by nwr
    09-26-2006 12:59 PM


    Re: we have been building artificial reefs forever
    Well, the term "creationist" has to do with the Bible, doesn't it? If so, the Torah is the first five books of the Bible, including Noah and the Flood. It's just in Hebrew. In fact, St. Jerome who has something to do with the Bible and therefore creationism also decided that his commission to use the Septuagint to translate the Bible decided back before 400 CE that the Septuagint wasn't good enough for bible writing so he translated it from the Hebrew himself. That means the Torah Scrolls. Now I can read it in Hebrew/English and Spanish. It all says the same thing. Everything is based on Adam and Eve in the story of creation isn't it? It's the Torah Scrolls that you are all discussing scientifically here when you are debation "creationism". So you can use the English translation of the Torah Scrolls and I can sing them in Hebrew. Same words. Even the foreign ministry site of Israel says this in their Sacred Writings article. So actually the debate here is the Torah Scrolls vs Evolution if you want to be absolutely correct. IF you mention anything to do with God you are basing your education on the Torah Scrolls.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by nwr, posted 09-26-2006 12:59 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

    macnietspingal
    Inactive Member


    Message 10 of 11 (352785)
    09-28-2006 8:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 8 by nwr
    09-26-2006 12:59 PM


    Re: we have been building artificial reefs forever
    Now let's get baco to artificial reefs. The fact that the word "artificial" came into question brought out the "other" path. Now I've been interested in the core of the Earth as far as evolution is concerned ever since I followed the first trip to Mars so many years ago on my pc. When they said they were trying to create solar energy on Mars so man can escape the Earth, well that got me asking them. Isn't it true that there is sulfur breathing life near the core of the Earth? I think we'll start finally hearing more about evolution from NASA now.
    For me, creation is this: Everything we know of evolved from Hydrogen. It's two Hydrogen atoms to one Oxygen atom. Hydrogen is kind of important. I also learned at the Smithsonian many years ago that all life cells are created by C-O-H-N Of course, they said C-H-O-N Hey I got an Orthodox Jewish education so sue me, besides my paternal grandfather was Kohn, a Rabbi. So I have fun with Torahizing everything. Helps to know Hebrew
    So now that I can dispense with term "artificial" and just refer to reefs which are constantly evolving somehow as was pointed out. And it was pointed out that it has always been known to be true. So I just thought about are there reefs "under" continents. Then I looked up Continent to find out exactly what is a continent. Are continents really islands? I still don't know. This is from the Britannica.
    The distribution of the continental platforms and ocean basins on the surface of the globe and the distribution of the major landform features have long been among the most intriguing problems for scientific investigation and theorizing. Among the many hypotheses that have been offered as explanation are: (1) the tetrahedral (four-faced) theory, in which a cooling earth assumes the shape of a tetrahedron by spherical collapse; (2) the accretion theory, in which younger rocks attached to older shield areas became buckled to form the landforms; (3) the continental-drift theory, in which an ancient floating continent drifted apart; and (4) the convection-current theory, in which convection currents in the Earth's interior dragged the crust to cause folding and mountain making.
    You see, isn't biology really organic chemistry? So my thinking in terms of petrie dishes with respect to evolution and a very observbable natural form are reefs because they can be so entertainngly observed forming. I think people can learn more about evolution of life from reefs than they can from laboratories. We don't even know how our continents came to be.
    I don't think many people die even thinking about reefs as they buy homes on the coastlines and by creeks. Hydrogen is a powerful creator. Can we change the evolution of the human environment if we start adding as a focus to our study of cells by putting an educational fence around reef technology? We are all stuff the stars are made of. So is water. H2O. Reefs in evolution. In genetics at a very elemetary level. .
    Expand the "laboratory" experience for educating ourselves to simply include "reefs". All that so-called "garbage" clinging to our crab pots which really are the elements of "life" and human beings.
    I start subject I don't know anything about and when I try to find it in the encyclopedia they agree, no one knows much about it. Just lots of theories.
    So how about it, are the Continents floating islands? Are there reefs under our continents creating evolutionary objects right now?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by nwr, posted 09-26-2006 12:59 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

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    AdminQuetzal
    Inactive Member


    Message 11 of 11 (352786)
    09-28-2006 9:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 10 by macnietspingal
    09-28-2006 8:51 AM


    Closing this Topic Temporarily
    Okay, I see where I may have been in error promoting this topic in the first place. I am temporarily closing this down until someone can explain to me exactly what it is the topic is intended to discuss.
    Please take comments and discussion of this action to the "Thread Reopen Requests" thread linked in the signature block below.

    "Here come da Judge" - Flip Wilson
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  • This message is a reply to:
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