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Author Topic:   MATRIX related to Bible?
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 1 of 22 (68613)
11-22-2003 6:52 PM


This was an interesting fact about the Matrix I found on the internet.
quote:
On Easter weekend the film The Matrix was released as if to indicate to the world that it was more than just another special effects movie. There was a hidden meaning with depth, a powerful statement that was totally unnoticed by most viewers. Larry and Andy Wachowski, two brothers, had a vision of embracing the Bible and introducing it differently to the world.
M&M: The Messiah and The Matrix - Matrix Fans
I thought that was pretty cool.
Also some sybolism I saw that was forgotten on the first film is the red pill representing Christ's blood, the blue pill Hell.
Or Blue= world in the movie, and red= Morpheus' squad etc...
------------------
Bible
Search Results
"love" was found 865 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Love

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 11-22-2003 6:54 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 11 by Loudmouth, posted 11-24-2003 5:21 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 21 by Trae, posted 06-21-2004 12:14 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 22 (68614)
11-22-2003 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
11-22-2003 6:52 PM


powerful statement that was totally unnoticed by most viewers.
LOL, oh really, you mean it wasn't very, very obvious?
(NUIS, wrong ID again, disregard the "admin" please)
[This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 11-22-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 11-22-2003 6:52 PM joshua221 has not replied

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Asgara
Member (Idle past 1788 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 3 of 22 (68617)
11-22-2003 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNosy
11-22-2003 6:54 PM


LOL, not to mention the gnostic and buddhist elements...
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 952 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 4 of 22 (68620)
11-22-2003 7:28 PM


Seriously, the Biblical elements in the Matrix are not subtle. But it's not like Christianity invented the idea of saviors, after all. I think that the movie is drawing more on that primal proto-myth than on anything specifically Christian.
Nonetheless you're free to interpret the movie however you like, and however you can support it from the work. I just don't see why the Christian elements are any more significant than the Buddist or Gnostic, unless you're a Christian, I guess.

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by joshua221, posted 11-22-2003 7:33 PM crashfrog has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 5 of 22 (68625)
11-22-2003 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
11-22-2003 7:28 PM


Who said that the Christian elements of the movie were more significant?
------------------
Bible
Search Results
"love" was found 865 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Love

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 11-22-2003 7:28 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Asgara, posted 11-22-2003 7:34 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 8 by crashfrog, posted 11-23-2003 12:08 AM joshua221 has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 1788 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 6 of 22 (68626)
11-22-2003 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by joshua221
11-22-2003 7:33 PM


in your quote
Larry and Andy Wachowski, two brothers, had a vision of embracing the Bible and introducing it differently to the world.
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by joshua221, posted 11-22-2003 7:33 PM joshua221 has replied

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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 7 of 22 (68683)
11-22-2003 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Asgara
11-22-2003 7:34 PM


It reveals the intentions of the W. Bros, it doesn't say The Christian view is more significant, and I don't think from not adding the other religion's views in the essay, does the author say this.
------------------
Bible
Search Results
"love" was found 865 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Love

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 Message 6 by Asgara, posted 11-22-2003 7:34 PM Asgara has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 952 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 8 of 22 (68704)
11-23-2003 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by joshua221
11-22-2003 7:33 PM


Who said that the Christian elements of the movie were more significant?
Well, isn't that the point of this thread? If it wasn't why didn't you call it "Religious themes in The Matrix" or "MATRIX related to Bible, Buddism, and Gnosticism"?
It seems like you singled out the Bible as a specific, significant reference to The Matrix. Why did you do that if that's not the point of the thread?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by joshua221, posted 11-22-2003 7:33 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by joshua221, posted 11-23-2003 8:06 AM crashfrog has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 9 of 22 (68721)
11-23-2003 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by crashfrog
11-23-2003 12:08 AM


It is the point of the thread, If I were to start a new thread on Buddhism and the matrix who is to say it is more significant then the Gnostic or Christian parts of the Matrix? I just thought that relation for the Bible and the Matrix was interesting, not more significant.
------------------
Bible
Search Results
"love" was found 865 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Love

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by crashfrog, posted 11-23-2003 12:08 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 11-23-2003 8:24 AM joshua221 has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 952 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 22 (68724)
11-23-2003 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by joshua221
11-23-2003 8:06 AM


If I were to start a new thread on Buddhism and the matrix who is to say it is more significant then the Gnostic or Christian parts of the Matrix?
Well, technically, you would be saying it, when you started the thread.
Perhaps that's neither here nor there. What exactly did you want to talk about in regards to the Bible and the Matrix? Yes, the Matrix is informed and influenced by the Bible. Given that the Bible has been the most influental literature in the history of the English-speaking world I don't find that odd. You could find Biblical references in Dude, Where's My Car if you looked hard enough.
Now, is it your position that the Brothers W (hope you don't mind my shorthand) intended to present a dramatic retelling of the Bible, as your quote seems to indicate? That specfically Biblical themes are central to their work? Because I don't agree, and so we could talk about that. Otherwise maybe you could make it a little clearer what you wanted to talk about, here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by joshua221, posted 11-23-2003 8:06 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by joshua221, posted 03-23-2004 8:08 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 22 (69035)
11-24-2003 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
11-22-2003 6:52 PM


I think it is more related to Descarte's philosophy of "I think therefore I am." A brief synopsis: Rene Descartes was taking a nap in which he dreamed that he was having a dream. That is, a dream within a dream. During his nap, he awoke from one dream only to realize he was still dreaming. He asked himself how do I know that I am not dreaming right now. Through some circular reasoning he came up with "Ergo congito sum (sp?)" or I think therefore I am. It doesn't matter if we are dreaming or not, our thoughts are real. The W brothers take this philosophy to the next level and give us a vision of what waking up from a very real dream would be like, somewhat like pulling the drapes back on Descartes version of the Wizard of Oz. Mix in some Eastern religious, messianic, and gnostic themes and you have a movie that is thought provoking on one side and blatantly philisophical on the other. Christian themes can be found, but they don't seem to be as intentional as the overall philisophical push.
I still haven't seen the last installment, so don't ruin it for me. Just imagine if Neo wakes up at the end and realizes it's all a dream. Wouldn't that make quite an ending.

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 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 11-22-2003 6:52 PM joshua221 has not replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 952 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 12 of 22 (69054)
11-24-2003 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Loudmouth
11-24-2003 5:21 PM


Just imagine if Neo wakes up at the end and realizes it's all a dream. Wouldn't that make quite an ending.
A stupid ending. Jesus, first Slashdot, and now here. Why does everybody suggest a "It was all a dream!" ending like that's a brilliant idea? It's the oldest, dumbest idea in the book, dude.
I mean, geez. It applies to any movie. What if at the end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, he wakes up and realizes it's all a dream? What if at the end of Dinner with Andre he wakes up and realizes that the entire dinner was just a dream?
If those are stupid ideas for those movies, why do you think it would work any better for the Matrix?
Not to jump down your throat, but anybody who would suggest such an ending has really no idea about how fiction works. All fiction is a dream, of sorts. To actually spell that out at the end is pandering and infuriating to everybody whose time you're wasting.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 13 by Loudmouth, posted 11-24-2003 7:06 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 22 (69062)
11-24-2003 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by crashfrog
11-24-2003 6:38 PM


Not to jump down your throat, but anybody who would suggest such an ending has really no idea about how fiction works. All fiction is a dream, of sorts. To actually spell that out at the end is pandering and infuriating to everybody whose time you're wasting.
Point taken, and without hard feelings. Just for example, "Total Recall" (Arnold on Mars) was based on a Dick novel in which the protagonist does wake up the end and realizes that the whole thing was a dream. But you are right, it would make for a bad ending and waste not only one movie but three. However, with the "dream within a dream" theme it would be more appropriate than in an Indiana Jones movie.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 11-24-2003 6:38 PM crashfrog has replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 952 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 14 of 22 (69067)
11-24-2003 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Loudmouth
11-24-2003 7:06 PM


However, with the "dream within a dream" theme it would be more appropriate than in an Indiana Jones movie.
Sure. And I think interpreting the three Matrix movies as "Neo wakes up and it was all a dream" is particularly lame because it misses a really exciting, similar interpetation of the movies - that the W Bros. are trying to imply that transcendence is a process, not a destination. In a sense, he's woken up from one illusion into another, and worse yet, it's illusions all the way up. There's never an ultimately "real" reality, because transcendence is always possible.
The real world in the Matrix is still to be taken as the real world that we're familiar with. It's just that, just as it's possible to transcend the Matrix, it's possible to transcend this reality, too. And whatever's beyond, as well.
That's a very interesting premise indeed. I fear though that people might miss it as they struggle with stupid "dream within a dream" scenarios.

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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 15 of 22 (94244)
03-23-2004 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
11-23-2003 8:24 AM


This is old but I was just fascinated with the Movie's realation to the Bible, why this is at all offending to you I don't know.
[This message has been edited by prophex, 03-23-2004]

The earth is flat.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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