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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
ICANT
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1 of 13 (915722)
02-16-2024 7:22 PM


Percy since you don't like the way I am debating in the Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman I am proposing this new Thread.
In this thread I will discuss Jesus roll in the creationn of the universe and His Physical roll on earth.
In Message 334 Taq said:
Taq writes:
We don't need to know where the universe came from in order to conclude that the universe began as a dense region of energy that expanded outwards.
That pen point or pea sized universe could not contain enough energy to create the entire universe and everything in it as there are billions of Galaxies known to exist in the universe now.
I will agree that you don't have to know the origin of the universe to know that it came from a lot of energy that had to come from somewhere that the universe and everything in it was formed out of.
He also said:
Taq writes:
In the same way, we don't need to know where energy and matter came from in order to understand how clouds form. You might as well claim that germs causing disease is an assumption because we don't know where the energy for the universe came from.
Clouds forming don't have anything to do with the amount of energy required to form all the stars, planets, billions of Galaxies in the universe.
Therefore you need a source for the energy to create the universe and everything in it. No energy no universe.
If Taq is correct and I think he is and the "universe began as a dense region of energy that expanded outwards. It requires a dense region of energy to start with existing somewhere.
My question is where did that energy come from and science says "we don't know".
I want to find the answer to that question.
God Bless,
I will be using the Bible so place it anywhere you like that I can use it.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Tangle, posted 02-17-2024 1:24 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 02-17-2024 1:29 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 6 by Theodoric, posted 02-17-2024 1:41 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 7 by NosyNed, posted 02-17-2024 1:55 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 9 by GDR, posted 02-17-2024 2:24 PM ICANT has not replied

Admin
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Message 2 of 13 (915724)
02-17-2024 12:23 PM


Thread Copied from The Book Nook Forum
Thread copied here from the HistoricalJesus did He create the universe? thread in the The Book Nook forum.

Tanypteryx
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Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 3 of 13 (915736)
02-17-2024 1:09 PM


ICANT in Message 1 writes:
I will be using the Bible so place it anywhere you like that I can use it.
I'm baffled why this would be in a science forum.
Jesus is fictional and cannot be shown to be historical and he isn't mentioned anywhere in the bible's genesis.
There is exactly the same evidence that Harry Potter created the Universe as Jesus.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 4 of 13 (915741)
02-17-2024 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
02-16-2024 7:22 PM


This should be quick.
Prove the universe requires a god to create it.
Then solve the uncaused cause problem.
Then prove that the God 'what dun it' was a chap called Jesus born 2,000 years ago.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2024 7:22 PM ICANT has not replied

PaulK
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Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 5 of 13 (915742)
02-17-2024 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
02-16-2024 7:22 PM


This topic is essentially silly. There seems to be no sensible discussion to be had on the subject.
The only way the topic of the title would make sense is if it were claimed that it is possible to demonstrate that the Jesus of Faith existed through historical methods. But this is simply not possible - history certainly cannot demonstrate that Jesus performed even one genuine miracle - and even that would be insufficient.
Instead of that all we get is ICANT’s uninformed opinions on cosmology. To which I will respond that all the relevant experts disagree, which is a better argument than ICANT’s personal incredulity - which is all ICANT offers and very likely all he can offer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2024 7:22 PM ICANT has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 6 of 13 (915748)
02-17-2024 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
02-16-2024 7:22 PM


No.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2024 7:22 PM ICANT has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9005
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 7 of 13 (915749)
02-17-2024 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
02-16-2024 7:22 PM


By the Numbers
That pen point or pea sized universe could not contain enough energy to create the entire universe and everything in it as there are billions of Galaxies known to exist in the universe now.
Show your calculations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2024 7:22 PM ICANT has not replied

Admin
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Posts: 13081
From: EvC Forum
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Message 8 of 13 (915750)
02-17-2024 2:00 PM


Moderator Error
I apologize to everyone. I saw ICANT's concluding lines about seeking an answer to the question of where the energy in the early universe came from, and then I saw "God Bless" where his messages usually end and apparently stopped reading. Given his title I thought he was going to try to tie the historical Jesus in with the beginning of the universe. I missed the next line where he said he'd be using the Bible.
To ICANT: You can't use the Bible in this forum. If you like I can move this to the Faith and Belief forum.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2024 6:09 PM Admin has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 9 of 13 (915754)
02-17-2024 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
02-16-2024 7:22 PM


Does it matter
ICANT writes:
My question is where did that energy come from and science says "we don't know".
It seems to me as a Christian you are asking the wrong question. I suggest that it matters to you as you keep tying yourself up in knots by basing Christianity on your particular way of understanding the Bible.
It appears to me that you understand the Bible as being a collection of books that were more or less dictated by God. That understanding of the Bible turns God into a schizophrenic being; sometimes a God of peace and sometimes of a God ordering genocide..
How about understanding the Bible as a collection of books written by numerous authors and redactors with a narrative reflecting the growing understanding of God and His place in our hearts and minds.
It doesn't matter whether or not God created the physical world. What matters is the life in the world that perceives and experiences this physical world in a particular way with the senses we have been given. More importantly than that though is the creation of conscious life, and further, conscious life capable of empathy, and morality.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2024 7:22 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 02-17-2024 5:37 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 12 by AZPaul3, posted 02-17-2024 6:31 PM GDR has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22604
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 10 of 13 (915768)
02-17-2024 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by GDR
02-17-2024 2:24 PM


Re: Does it matter
GDR in Message 9 writes:
It doesn't matter whether or not God created the physical world. What matters is the life in the world that perceives and experiences this physical world in a particular way with the senses we have been given. More importantly than that though is the creation of conscious life, and further, conscious life capable of empathy, and morality.
Get thee from me, Satan!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by GDR, posted 02-17-2024 2:24 PM GDR has not replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 11 of 13 (915769)
02-17-2024 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Admin
02-17-2024 2:00 PM


Re: Moderator Error
Hi Percy,
As I said at the bottom of the post, it does not matter where it is as long as I can use the Bible, and talk about creation. Message 1
I will discuss the universe as being created by a historical Jesus.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Admin, posted 02-17-2024 2:00 PM Admin has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 12 of 13 (915770)
02-17-2024 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by GDR
02-17-2024 2:24 PM


Re: Does it matter
What matters is the life in the world that perceives and experiences this physical world in a particular way with the senses we have been given.
Matters? To whom? In what way?
More importantly than that though is the creation of conscious life, and further, conscious life capable of empathy, and morality.
More important? See above.
All the evidence we can see indicates the thin film of slime that is life covering this planet is just a side result of the forces involved in this universe's main task of making suns. This universe appears well tuned for making suns, not life. This universe appears to have no care for life.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by GDR, posted 02-17-2024 2:24 PM GDR has not replied

Admin
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Posts: 13081
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 13 of 13 (915783)
02-17-2024 7:03 PM


Thread Copied to Faith and Belief Forum
Thread copied to the The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe? thread in the Faith and Belief forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.

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