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Author Topic:   Espresso for us old folk
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1 of 13 (604490)
02-12-2011 5:46 PM


Long ago and far far away, in an earlier age and younger world, I was really into teas, wines and coffees. I was lucky enough to be living at the time on Hilton Head Island with the regular stream of meetings and conventions as well as sports events and vacationers that were interested in having someone put on wine, tea or coffee tastings (originally for the wives while the husbands were out on those meeting on the courts or courses) but pretty soon even those husbands were coming.
When it came to coffee I was really into doing it right, sourcing green beans, roasting my own, grinding with a precise bur grinder just before brewing and only using the "proper brewer", a vacuum pot, French Press, Moka or Turkish Pot or my Gaggia Hand pull manual espresso machine.
But that was Long ago and far far away, in an earlier age and younger world.
Today I want good coffees and espresso fast, easy, with no effort on my part. That means single serve coffees and machines.
Lately I have been comparing two different espresso systems, the Nespresso and Lavazza makers.
The Lavazza machine is much bigger than the Nespresso unit I've been using for a few years now. It also has a built in steamer wand that is not available on the Nespresso unit I'm using but is found on some of Nespresso's newer and upscale model. The internals of all the Nespresso units are basically the same so the espresso produced in the same across their whole line.
Both machine use a pump to develop the pressure needed to make good espresso and premeasured, specifically ground and tamped capsules that just drop in, brew and then get ejected.
The Nespresso capsule is made from aluminum and pyramidal in shape while the the Lavazza is a larger plastic tub.
The Lavazza machine also has a height adjustable drip tray so you can use cups up to 4 " tall.
So how is the espresso?
In a word, NICE. It may not be quite as good as the best pulls I've made in that earlier age, but it is certainly better than many that I made. And they are consistent, always good and fast, ready in less than a minute, anytime.
How do the two different capsules systems compare?
Well, Nespresso has more varieties, sixteen different Grand Cru coffees, Lavazza only eight. Lavazza markets primarily to commercial uses and so sells in larger unit lots (100 capsules usually) while Nespresso sells individual sleeves of 10 capsules and only a five sleeve minimum. Nespresso sells mostly directly and has fantastic service, usually a two day delivery.
Both have a unit cost of about fifty cents a capsule.
Overall, the Lavazza capsules have been naturally sweeter, have a denser crema and better mouth feel.
Here are some examples.
The Nespresso Capricco on the left and the Lavazza Amabile on the right. Note the larger bubbles in the Nespresso.
And the Nespresso Rosabya on the left and the Lavazza Tierra on the right.
And a wonderful cappuccino made with a Lavazza Intenso, whole milk steamed to 150 ℉ in a cup made by Celia Cole of Cole Pottery.
Any of you that live on the East Coast should really plan a pilgrimage to Cole Pottery in Sanford, NC and meet Celia Cole and her sister Neolia, then wander over to Seagrove, NC to the JB Cole pottery and to Jugtown. They are all National Treasures.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by bluescat48, posted 02-13-2011 12:26 AM jar has not replied
 Message 3 by dwise1, posted 02-13-2011 3:46 AM jar has not replied
 Message 6 by onifre, posted 02-14-2011 1:15 PM jar has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4220 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 2 of 13 (604546)
02-13-2011 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
02-12-2011 5:46 PM


Sounds like an interesting trip, if I ever get down there I will check it out. As for espresso, not in my line, black with sugar for me.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 02-12-2011 5:46 PM jar has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 3 of 13 (604554)
02-13-2011 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
02-12-2011 5:46 PM


To start with, my own coffee experience has been rather domestic, such that I've just had to go with whatever coffee was available. Kind of reminiscient of my father's WWII war-time experience that coffee of some sort might always be available, but never anything to add to it, so he always took his black -- though he did always thoroughly hate the addition of chichory (lauded in coffee commercials through the 70's and 80's), which I suspect was the Allied version of Ersatzkaffee (in the 1980's, I enjoyed the PBS series on "Private Schulz" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Schulz ) about a German private who lived through the sucessful Nazi counterfeiting of British banknotes -- at one point, Schulz offered coffee to somebody and assured them that it was not "ersatz"). While Starbucks has long been offered locally -- and even kind of realized the "The Simpsons" joke of nearly every storefront in the mall turning into a Starbucks, when in Santa Ana of Orange County, Calif, a Starbucks opened across the street from a Starbucks inside a Barnes & Noble (on Main St. across Town and Country).
In 1973, after having worked the summer in Germany, I had a full day in Paris before the return flight, so I did sample espresso for the first time while waiting for the tour bus (during which the driver remarked to the guide about the caf "Les Gaulois" and the popular Asterix comix and I alone understood).
Since then, I've sampled cappucino at Starbucks or at Fry's. But coffee has otherwise always been whatever's available. And when I'm given coffee options, I've always chosen to give those to friends who could appreciate those options.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 02-12-2011 5:46 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4220 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 4 of 13 (604607)
02-13-2011 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by dwise1
02-13-2011 3:46 AM


Coffee prefs
Kind of reminiscient of my father's WWII war-time experience that coffee of some sort might always be available, but never anything to add to it, so he always took his black -- though he did always thoroughly hate the addition of chichory (lauded in coffee commercials through the 70's and 80's), which I suspect was the Allied version of Ersatzkaffee
Interesting. My coffee pref stems from my tour of duty in Vietnam. There was plenty of coffee, plenty of sugar but virtually no creamer.
I drank it black with sugar for a year and never stopped in the 42 years since.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by dwise1, posted 02-13-2011 3:46 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 13 (604608)
02-13-2011 1:07 PM


Two Decaf Espresso
Today I also compared two Decafs, Nespresso's Decaffienato Intenso to Lavazza's Espresso Decaffienato. This one was tough and the two products really, really different.
The Lavazza Espresso Decaffienato is a 100% Arabica while the Nespresso is a blend of Arabica and Robusto beans, and the characteristics of those two show up prominently in both look and taste.
As usual, the Nespresso on the left, Lavazza on the right.
In this comparison the first thing I noticed was that the Nespresso had the finer, heavier crema, most likely due to the Robusto beans. This was particularly evident when I added a little sugar. The sugar sat on top of the crema far longer on the Nespresso sample than the Lavazza.
You can still see some of the sugar sitting on the crema in this picture.
The differences continued when I tasted the two. The Nespresso was far more intense with a bitter over tone like dark chocolate while the Lavazza was more full bodied, sweeter and more fruity.
These are both surprisingly good decaf espressos and while quite different, each has characteristics the other lacks.
I would call these a draw, each will appeal to different people based on individual preferences, but personally, I found the increased complexity of the Lavazza won me over in the end.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 6 of 13 (604710)
02-14-2011 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
02-12-2011 5:46 PM


I enjoy espresso, certainly the way you describe your experience is far more into it than I ever got. But I do enjoy some from Starbucks every now and again.
I was raise on the Cuban version of espresso, the colada. I like it a lot more than regular Italian espresso, maybe because I was raised on it, don't know. But I would have it as a kid in the morning as cafe con leche - which is basically a caffe latte. Then as I got older just straight without milk. My mom still makes it everyday for her and my dad after dinner and in the mornings. And of course it is always brewed when someone comes to visit...always. In fact, people would get offended if you didn't make some and offer it.
But it is never ever done with those fancy espresso machines that you have shown here. Although they are really nice. It's always made with a stove-top espresso maker, like the one found here. And the coffee used is any columbian variety, unless someone has brought over some from Cuba, which, for some reason, tastes way better.
Ever had the cuban version?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 02-12-2011 5:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 02-14-2011 1:51 PM onifre has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 13 (604716)
02-14-2011 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by onifre
02-14-2011 1:15 PM


onifre writes:
I enjoy espresso, certainly the way you describe your experience is far more into it than I ever got. But I do enjoy some from Starbucks every now and again.
I was raise on the Cuban version of espresso, the colada. I like it a lot more than regular Italian espresso, maybe because I was raised on it, don't know. But I would have it as a kid in the morning as cafe con leche - which is basically a caffe latte. Then as I got older just straight without milk. My mom still makes it everyday for her and my dad after dinner and in the mornings. And of course it is always brewed when someone comes to visit...always. In fact, people would get offended if you didn't make some and offer it.
But it is never ever done with those fancy espresso machines that you have shown here. Although they are really nice. It's always made with a stove-top espresso maker, like the one found here. And the coffee used is any columbian variety, unless someone has brought over some from Cuba, which, for some reason, tastes way better.
Ever had the cuban version?
- Oni
The pot you show is called a Moka pot. The Moka pot creates steam pressure and higher temperatures than the classic Espresso machine, slightly lower pressure than most pump systems but much higher temperatures. That leads to additional caramelization of the sugars in the grounds, making brown sugar basically.
Turkish coffee is very similar. For Turkish coffee the beans are ground even finer than for espresso, until they are almost a talc consistency. The grounds are then boiled directly, often with sugar added, and then poured without filtering letting the grounds settle out in the pot and cup.
Traditionally, coffee was grown in plantations in the eastern mountains of Cuba in an environment very much like Jamaica. The quality has suffered since the revolution since the state was the only legal buyer and paid way below what the going international rates were, but there are still many small farms where it is grown and some really fantastic examples sometimes leak out. Both the Arabica and Robusto beans are grown and traditionally Cuban coffees were a blend of about half Arabica, half Robusta. The Robusta is higher in caffeine and usually has a heavier body than the Arabica, but the Arabica generally is more complex often with fruit, spice or chocolate flavors.
Just a funny.
If offered some Cuban coffee, always take both the cup and saucer. Taking just the cup shows that you will likely die unloved and unmarried.
Edited by jar, : clarity

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by onifre, posted 02-14-2011 1:15 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by onifre, posted 02-14-2011 3:15 PM jar has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 8 of 13 (604727)
02-14-2011 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
02-14-2011 1:51 PM


That leads to additional caramelization of the sugars in the grounds, making brown sugar basically.
I've tried to make it, and it comes out aiiiight. My mom's, or any cuban mom's, always tastes better than the slop I make.
What I see them do with the sugar is, about 5 tblspns in the serving cup, then once a little bit of coffee starts to brew they pour that into the serving cup, then frantically stir the sugar with that little bit of coffee until it makes a paste-type sugar/coffee mix. That's how they get that light brown film on the top. Which is delicious.
Turkish coffee is very similar. For Turkish coffee the beans are ground even finer than for espresso, until they are almost a talc consistency. The grounds are then boiled directly, often with sugar added, and then poured without filtering letting the grounds settle out in the pot and cup.
What does that taste like? Never had it.
The quality has suffered since the revolution since the state was the only legal buyer and paid way below what the going international rates were, but there are still many small farms where it is grown and some really fantastic examples sometimes leak out.
Yeah, everything suffered after the revolution because Castro had no idea how to do any agriculture. Nor did he listen to the people who did know; he just tried to grow whatever where ever with no regard for what the individual soils could produce more favorably. It was stupid, and without any kind of plan. He would simply tell all the farmers to grow tobacco, and when that didn't work out, he would have them all get rid of the tobacco and start with coffee. Then when that didn't work he would have them all get rid of the coffee and start growing potatoes, or whatever. It was insanity.
The best thing about todays cuban market is that everything is by default completely organic. The people were allowed to grow pretty much anywhere they could grow for private consumption, and the result has been not only great coffee beans but a produce market (although not abundant enough to cover the demand) that would make Whole Foods or any American organic market envy the quality.
If offered some Cuban coffee, always take both the cup and saucer. Taking just the cup shows that you will likely die unloved and unmarried.
Nor allow anyone to swep your feet with a broom, for you will have the same result as with the saucer.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 02-14-2011 1:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 02-14-2011 3:41 PM onifre has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 13 (604733)
02-14-2011 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by onifre
02-14-2011 3:15 PM


onifre writes:
jar writes:
That leads to additional caramelization of the sugars in the grounds, making brown sugar basically.
I've tried to make it, and it comes out aiiiight. My mom's, or any cuban mom's, always tastes better than the slop I make.
What I see them do with the sugar is, about 5 tblspns in the serving cup, then once a little bit of coffee starts to brew they pour that into the serving cup, then frantically stir the sugar with that little bit of coffee until it makes a paste-type sugar/coffee mix. That's how they get that light brown film on the top. Which is delicious.
Yup, I often do that when making espresso in the Cuban tradition, but it requires a small spoon and fast hands.
onifre writes:
jar writes:
Turkish coffee is very similar. For Turkish coffee the beans are ground even finer than for espresso, until they are almost a talc consistency. The grounds are then boiled directly, often with sugar added, and then poured without filtering letting the grounds settle out in the pot and cup.
What does that taste like? Never had it.
Turkish coffee is thick, strong, sweet and somewhat gritty. It's usually served in small espresso or demitasse cups.
onifre writes:
jar writes:
The quality has suffered since the revolution since the state was the only legal buyer and paid way below what the going international rates were, but there are still many small farms where it is grown and some really fantastic examples sometimes leak out.
Yeah, everything suffered after the revolution because Castro had no idea how to do any agriculture. Nor did he listen to the people who did know; he just tried to grow whatever where ever with no regard for what the individual soils could produce more favorably. It was stupid, and without any kind of plan. He would simply tell all the farmers to grow tobacco, and when that didn't work out, he would have them all get rid of the tobacco and start with coffee. Then when that didn't work he would have them all get rid of the coffee and start growing potatoes, or whatever. It was insanity.
The best thing about todays cuban market is that everything is by default completely organic. The people were allowed to grow pretty much anywhere they could grow for private consumption, and the result has been not only great coffee beans but a produce market (although not abundant enough to cover the demand) that would make Whole Foods or any American organic market envy the quality.
Even worse, he used agriculture as a way to get the students out of town, send a whole bunch of inexperienced folk to harvest the crops. The result was that lots of produce was spoiled because the kids put over ripe or under ripe produce in with the stuff that was ripe, ruining all of it.
But hopefully soon the embargo will get lifted and the world will get flooded by pristine 1950's Detroit Heavy Metal. Folk can keep the cigars, I want one of the Chevies.
onifre writes:
jar writes:
If offered some Cuban coffee, always take both the cup and saucer. Taking just the cup shows that you will likely die unloved and unmarried.
Nor allow anyone to swep your feet with a broom, for you will have the same result as with the saucer.
- Oni
Ain't folk traditions wonderful?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by onifre, posted 02-14-2011 3:15 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by onifre, posted 02-14-2011 8:11 PM jar has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 10 of 13 (604776)
02-14-2011 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
02-14-2011 3:41 PM


Yup, I often do that when making espresso in the Cuban tradition, but it requires a small spoon and fast hands.
If you can master it it's worth the effort. Add your favorite biscotti to dip in that coffee/sugary goodness, and that's going to be a good day.
Turkish coffee is thick, strong, sweet and somewhat gritty. It's usually served in small espresso or demitasse cups.
The gritty part is curious, but the rest I like the sound of. If I ever see it available I'll be sure to try it.
Even worse, he used agriculture as a way to get the students out of town, send a whole bunch of inexperienced folk to harvest the crops. The result was that lots of produce was spoiled because the kids put over ripe or under ripe produce in with the stuff that was ripe, ruining all of it.
That's not even the limit to what went wrong over there. He also put prisoners and people seeking to leave the country in all levels of agriculture. My dad had to serve 3 years in a sugar cane plantation before he was allowed to leave the country. The way Castro saw it was, you can go after you've given the country some sweat. But how shitty of a job do you think my dad did?
Plus the prisoners would mix with the school kids and that would cause problems. Then later, after there was some structure built for agriculture and live stock, the theives rolled in and created the Cadena Alimenticia (The Food Chain.) It was basically ran like the mafia. So even when Cuba could have produce some sustainable agriculture system to feed the country, too many people had a hand in it, the weak suffer and the product turns to shit.
Ain't folk traditions wonderful?
Love 'em. Makes me laugh but, in a good way/a happy way, when I hear the ladies go on with their superstitions. I see it as harmless fun if that's what they care to believe. New Years is my favorite: 12 grapes eaten at midnite. A bucket of water dumped out the front door. Walk around the block with a suit case. And something with the color red, but I forget what that one is.
I actually do the grapes thing as tradition where ever I'm at.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 02-14-2011 3:41 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 13 (604857)
02-15-2011 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by onifre
02-14-2011 8:11 PM


Nespresson Kazaar vs Lavazza Rico
onifre writes:
jar writes:
Turkish coffee is thick, strong, sweet and somewhat gritty. It's usually served in small espresso or demitasse cups.
The gritty part is curious, but the rest I like the sound of. If I ever see it available I'll be sure to try it.
Turkish coffee is not filtered, the grounds are really, really fine and so stay in suspension longer. Gritty was probably not the best word for me to use but what the hey. The coffee is great but as with an old wine, you want to stop pouring or sipping before you get to the very bottom.
I compared two more capsules today, the Nespresso Kazaar a blend of Brazillian and Guatemalan Robusta and Brazilian Arabica beans and the Lavazza Rico, a blend of Brazilian and Central American Arabica and Asia Robusta beans. Again, both were sweet and full bodied, but the Lavazza sample was more complex with a longer finish and citrus undertones that were missing in the Nespresso Kazaar. Also, the crema produced by the Nespresso was again more like foam, making a thicker but less dense layer.
Nespresso Kazaar on left, Lavazza Rico on right.
Edited by jar, : add subtitle

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 13 (604955)
02-16-2011 12:15 PM


Results to date.
Well, I worked my way through comparisons of all eight different coffees from Lavazza with nine different coffees from Nespresso and in each case the Lavazza produced an espresso with denser crema, more body and a complex drink with a long lasting finish. As much as I have enjoyed the espresso convenience of the Nespresso the Lavazza capsules and system was a hands down winner. It is quieter, has less vibration and produces a superior drink. My Nespresso machine is definitely headed to the closet soon.
Are the shots as good as I have made in the past from far more expensive machines? Certainly not as good as the best shots I've pulled but definitely better than many. It's fast, very good and there is little waste or inconvenience.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 13 (606478)
02-25-2011 3:32 PM


Cafecito or caf cubano
Well I finally made what really tastes like a traditional cafecito or caf cubano to me.
I used a Rico as the basis of this but also made one that was as good with Amabile and Tierra. The Rico might have been just a touch closer to what I used to get but all three were good.
That tells me that the key is the process more than the coffee blend itself.
There are three secrets.
One is to use a natural cane sugar like Demerara Sugar, Barbados Sugar or the US equivalent "Sugar in the Raw".
Second, use lots of sugar, usually at least a heaping teaspoon full per shot.
Then the process.
Put the sugar in the demitasse or espresso cup and just start the first couple drops of espresso into the cup and stop.
Stir the sugar espresso mix until a dark brown paste results, then add the rest of the shot and stir.
The key is to make the paste, the result is a dark chocolaty crema that just explodes in your mouth.
If you also steam some milk and add it on top you get a Cortadito. A 50/50 ratio is my favorite but you can vary that to suit your tastes.
Give it a try and let me know if you like it?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
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