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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3638 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 1 of 5 (602730)
01-31-2011 12:04 PM


Do epigenesis-epigenetic theory and mirror neurons fit better with Darvinism-Neo Darvinism or the "Neurogenic Evolution" theory?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminSlev, posted 01-31-2011 4:48 PM zi ko has replied

AdminSlev
Member (Idle past 4659 days)
Posts: 113
Joined: 03-28-2010


Message 2 of 5 (602772)
01-31-2011 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by zi ko
01-31-2011 12:04 PM


A much more ellaborate opening post is needed in order for this to be promoted.
What epigenetic theory are you referring to ? What are mirror neurons ? What is Neurogenic evolution ? What is Darvinism-Neo Darvinism ?
Edit your post and PM me when you feel it is ready for another look at promotion.
AbE It seems this post wasn't meant as a new topic, but as a reply in another thread. PM me if this is the case
Edited by AdminSlev, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by zi ko, posted 01-31-2011 12:04 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by zi ko, posted 02-22-2011 10:06 PM AdminSlev has not replied

zi ko
Member (Idle past 3638 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 3 of 5 (605966)
02-22-2011 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminSlev
01-31-2011 4:48 PM


A much more ellaborate opening post is needed in order for this to be promoted.
AdminSlev writes:
A much more ellaborate opening post is needed in order for this to be promoted.
What epigenetic theory are you referring to ? What are mirror neurons ? What is Neurogenic evolution ? What is Darvinism-Neo Darvinism ?
Edit your post and PM me when you feel it is ready for another look at promotion.
AbE It seems this post wasn't meant as a new topic, but as a reply in another thread. PM me if this is the case
sorry to bother you. please cancel my above request for new post, but i would like, if it is possible a new post for my theory : Neuro-genic theory of evolution. Why classical evolution theory needs to be improoved.
NEURO-GENIC EVOLUTION OF SPECIES THEORY
(Why evolution theory needs to be improved)).
Although many evolutionists seem satisfied, some of them believe that there is a need for improvement of evolution theory, so to be more comprehensive and acceptable. This need is specially visualized on the following issues, where we can discern a relative obscurity, from the point of view evolution theory. On these themes new scientific research and findings partially oppose classical Darwinian, as well as neo- Darwinian views. In parallel there are a lot of different theoretic views about these issues, which change drastically the scenery.
Here I wish to make a notion about science’s wrong general attitude towards knowledge in regard to evolution.
A quick look on bibliography shows easily how much weight had been put by scientists in evolution’s significance over knowledge and learning, in relation to knowledge’s importance over evolution.
In fact you can hardly find a work for the last case. Is this fact an undisputable proof that the second case hasn’t got any truth in it, or that Darwin’s ideas had lead science to this wrong path? I believe the last one had happened.
Instincts
Darwin in his Origin of Species. treated instincts as complex reflexes that were made up of inherited units and therefore subject to natural selection..Tinbergen.ethology.wikipedia
Instincts are the inherent inclination of a living organism toward a particular behavior. Instinct are the inherent inclination of a living organism toward a particular behavior. The fixed action patterns are unlearned and inherited.One theory on instinct is that the inherent inclination is stored in the DNA and therefore passed from parent to offspring.
Tinbergen. See ethology. D. J. McFarland
So Instincts are unlearned and inherited units: What exactly are they? Why and how did they come?
They say not by learning, but just by mutations and natural selection. How many of those mutations and how many acts of natural selection, would be needed, so all these fine ingredients of so many different instincts, in their subsequent grades could be created, in conjunction with other somatic adaptation going on in parallel? And imagine a half completed instinct, not at all functional, to wait again and again a random mutation to happen, and then a successful act of natural selection to occur for one step, amongst many others, towards the whole instinct’s formation.This explanation seems to be so be elaborate and improbable. Could computers give the chances of successfully completed such events?
Instincts are complex reflexes. There is need for an explanation: how these units come to surf ace reflectively? They need, as any reflex does, a stimulus, a nervous system as mediator and a known in advance process inside the n. system, to connect the stimulus with the unit. So these units to be activated, use exactly the same structures and the same process as, any known learning function. So we have to accept that this reflective activation is a part of learning process. But, if this is so, how somebody can suggest, that these units made from an unlearnt staff, obviously different in structure, finally change nature or simulate learning staff, so to be able to use the pathways of learning procedures and act as a learning process?
But we now know that in scientific community other views prevail. We read:
The concept of instinct does not, therefore, entail an inflexible notion of development. On the contrary, it is quite compatible with the idea that developmental outcomes are contingent on environmental conditions, and with the idea that learning plays an important part in development. Dylan Evans
From Oxford companion to the body
Learning
- Darwin meets Lamarck — the co-evolution of genes and learning Behavioural Inheritance in Evolution
By Eytan Avital
David Yellin College of Education, Jerusalem
In this chapter we are going to look at tradition, genes and learning all at once, as they interact during evolution. We have shown in previous chapters how, irrespective of any genetic change, social learning can lead to independent cultural evolution and promote speciation. When the role of the transmission of learnt information is recognised, interpretations of the evolution of many important behaviours are altered. However, for a more complete picture of what happens during behavioural evolution, we need to look at the type of genetic changes that occur during the evolution of the mechanisms of learning and the various forms of memory. We need to know what drives.— that the evolution of learning is, to a large extent, self-propelled.
#if this happens, learning has the power to invoke evolution
If niche construction happens then .. This body of theory supports the view that the complementary nature of organisms and their environment is not just the result of the single process of adaptation by natural selection. Rather, evolution is a two-way process, in which niche construction and natural selection operate in parallel, but also interact.
Read more: Niche Construction - Evolution from Molecules to Men - Selection, Environment, Organisms, Evolutionary, Environments, and Process
.
The new branch of research on epigenetics has overturned our established concepts about learning and evolution and new advances are expected to be made. We read:
Most epigenetic changes only occur within the course of one individual organism's lifetime, but, if a mutation in the DNA has been caused in sperm or egg cell that results in fertilization, then some epigenetic changes are inherited from one generation to the next.[9] This raises the question of whether or not epigenetic changes in an organism can alter the basic structure of its DNA (see Evolution, below), a form of Lamarckism. Wikipedia. Molecular basis of epigenetics.
Epigenetic changes of this type thus have the potential to direct increased frequencies of permanent genetic mutation. DNA methylation patterns are known to be established and modified in response to environmental factors by a complex interplay of at least three independent DNA methyltransferases
Wikipedia. epigenetics. mechanism
It has also been speculated that organisms may take advantage of differential mutation rates associated with epigenetic features to control the mutation rates of particular genes.[37] Interestingly, recent analysis have suggested that members of the APOBEC family of cytosine deaminases are capable of simultaneously mediating genetic and epigenetic inheritance using similar molecular mechanism
Wikipedia. evolution
the "rules governing physiological regulation and cellular and higher levels of organization are located not in the genome, but in interactive epigenetic networks which themselves organize genomic response to environmental signaling" (Strohman, R. 1994. Epigenesis: the missing beat in biotechnology? Biotechnology Feb;12(2):156-64) of evolution process and its cesses
Why do I link epigenetics with learning?
Because environmental factors are information, namely learning material, and are those which, during individual’s life span, cause the epigenetic effect.
Darwin accepts interact between environment and organism only during individual lifespan, so any basic change in organism can take place only by natural selection and mutations. He uses this artificial time factor to adaptation evolution and finally to life itself and I think this is utterly wrong. Life, learning and evolution are strong natural powers and it is improbable that they follow time factors. It is only logical to expect that they follow the most potent factor, that of continuity, from the appearance of first organic proteins up to mankind. This continuum of evolution is succeeded, apart from epigenetics mainly, by deeper learning mechanisms (empathic transfer, intelligent communication), unstoppably transferring evolutional learning material through generations to genome.
At phylogenic stage these mechanisms, together with natural selection and mutations are working in parallel. In the case of mutations we think that epigenetic information may have an enhancing role, by reducing stableness of DNA bonds, or by increasing the rate of mutations, as epigenetics suggest (Wikipedia).
Darwin excludes that learning can change DNA. Today epigenetics leave the door open, carefully though, to this possibility. Biologists wonder if perigenome changes are enough to explain new species creation. DNA change can happen over million years. So proof is difficult. But this doesn’t give the right to anybody to aphoristically exclude it.
On other hand empathy and intelligent communication (basic learning mechanisms) can work over millions of years, alone or in conjunction with mutations and natural selection, so to be able to lead to basic changes in species.
At the same moment information reception and diffusion inside the organism is
As we know N.S, even primordial one, has memory, accumulated and classified, so it is logical to think that accumulated information-irritations of same nature, but always having the element of danger and discontent, when reaching a critical
l Empathy and intelligent communication.
I may am wrong, but I think there isn’t any scientific work on empathy’s significance to species evolution.
Empathy was not known to Darwin. Not the mirror neurons either. I think that evolutionists had not given the proper importance to these two knowledge transfer mechanisms.
Intelligent communication is learning mechanism working with empathy in higher organisms, with relatively grown up central neural system, by which parents teach siblings and give them useful knowledge.
I think they are the missing link of nature’s continuity from learning to species evolution. As they can transfer knowledge from generation to generation, are also able to act and cause changes on basic genome structures), that could lead, in cooperation, or not, with mutations and natural selection, to new species. So, as I suppose that Darwin didn’t know about empathy, it was not improbable of him to eliminate learning’s importance to evolution process. But we now know. And we know that empathy, more so in lower animals and intelligent communication in higher ones, and at the same time working in combination, they are very important evolution factors, as they transfer so useful information from generation to generation and have been neglected so far.
Mirror neurons. This finding has substantiated empathy’s significance.
Punctuated equilibrium and stasis.
These concepts are obviously in contrast of Darwin’s basic idea of gradual species change.
Thus punctuated equilibrium contradicts some of Darwin's ideas regarding the specific mechanisms of evolution, but generally accords with Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection.[42]
Eldredge and Gould proposed that the degree of gradualism commonly attributed to Charles Darwin is virtually nonexistent in the fossil record, and that stasis dominates the history of most fossil species
Darwin had noted on his 1844 Essay, "Better begin with this: If species really, after catastrophes, created in showers world over, my theory false."[42]
Origin of Species Darwin wrote that "the periods during which species have undergone modification, though long as measured in years, have probably been short in comparison with the periods during which they retain the same form."[44]
One cell organisms.
When we come to one cell organisms, we can’t use of course neurogenic evolution theory. But we can expand the basis of my hypothesis, so to include neurogenic theory as well: in neuro-genic theory I treated knowledge as an enriched information, which is the corner stone of evolution. The same idea applies to one cell organisms. Information from environment meats living cell and causes a simple reaction. This reaction has an effect on inner parts of the cell and other cells near it. So we have here in away a mode of learning arc, where neural system is substituted by chemical or biological reactions.
Proteins
Proteins in a living cell have the ability to react to stimuli (information) and convey a type of information from its one end to the other, and to its near substances. This is how differentiation —adaptation begins.
So, material and information are the cornerstones of life and consequently of evolution. They form life’s basic dipole. Both are equally important for life.
Now we have to answer to the inevitable question: Who has made information so important?
And the answer is: the One who has made universe and has put universe laws. Significance of function of information is a universal law for life, equivalent to others.
It is evident that neural system’s role in the above process is crucial. Neural tissue isn’t just another tissue amongst others. It ‘thinks, supervises, decides ‘rules evolution, and at the end life. It is being acting like God. But if this is the case, who does put the rules for its own evolution? Is it auto-regulated? Is its thinking a result of its own evolution? OR.
This is what I mean by saying that my theory brings closer evolutionists and creationists. Now at least we can know where exactly their difference lies and where biology could search and may give, or not, the final solution to the Big Question.
Z. K
E mail: zikont@hotmail.com
thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminSlev, posted 01-31-2011 4:48 PM AdminSlev has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Adminnemooseus, posted 02-22-2011 10:43 PM zi ko has replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 4 of 5 (605971)
02-22-2011 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by zi ko
02-22-2011 10:06 PM


Your existing topic
Doesn't this all relate to your existing topic, New theory about evolution between creationism and evolution?
Take things to that topic.
Adminnemooseus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by zi ko, posted 02-22-2011 10:06 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by zi ko, posted 02-23-2011 9:07 AM Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

zi ko
Member (Idle past 3638 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 5 of 5 (606005)
02-23-2011 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Adminnemooseus
02-22-2011 10:43 PM


Re: Your existing topic
NEURO-GENIC EVOLUTION OF SPECIES THEORY
(Why evolution theory needs to be improved)).
Although many evolutionists seem satisfied, some of them believe that there is a need for improvement of evolution theory, so to be more comprehensive and acceptable. This need is specially visualized on the following issues, where we can discern a relative obscurity, from the point of view evolution theory. On these themes new scientific research and findings partially oppose classical Darwinian, as well as neo- Darwinian views. In parallel there are a lot of different theoretic views about these issues, which change drastically the scenery.
Here I wish to make a notion about science’s wrong general attitude towards knowledge in regard to evolution.
A quick look on bibliography shows easily how much weight had been put by scientists in evolution’s significance over knowledge and learning, in relation to knowledge’s importance over evolution.
In fact you can hardly find a work for the last case. Is this fact an undisputable proof that the second case hasn’t got any truth in it, or that Darwin’s ideas had lead science to this wrong path? I believe the last one had happened.
Instincts
Darwin in his Origin of Species. treated instincts as complex reflexes that were made up of inherited units and therefore subject to natural selection..Tinbergen.ethology.wikipedia
Instincts are the inherent inclination of a living organism toward a particular behavior. Instinct are the inherent inclination of a living organism toward a particular behavior. The fixed action patterns are unlearned and inherited.One theory on instinct is that the inherent inclination is stored in the DNA and therefore passed from parent to offspring.
Tinbergen. See ethology. D. J. McFarland
So Instincts are unlearned and inherited units: What exactly are they? Why and how did they come?
They say not by learning, but just by mutations and natural selection. How many of those mutations and how many acts of natural selection, would be needed, so all these fine ingredients of so many different instincts, in their subsequent grades could be created, in conjunction with other somatic adaptation going on in parallel? And imagine a half completed instinct, not at all functional, to wait again and again a random mutation to happen, and then a successful act of natural selection to occur for one step, amongst many others, towards the whole instinct’s formation.This explanation seems to be so be elaborate and improbable. Could computers give the chances of successfully completed such events?
Instincts are complex reflexes. There is need for an explanation: how these units come to surf ace reflectively? They need, as any reflex does, a stimulus, a nervous system as mediator and a known in advance process inside the n. system, to connect the stimulus with the unit. So these units to be activated, use exactly the same structures and the same process as, any known learning function. So we have to accept that this reflective activation is a part of learning process. But, if this is so, how somebody can suggest, that these units made from an unlearnt staff, obviously different in structure, finally change nature or simulate learning staff, so to be able to use the pathways of learning procedures and act as a learning process?
But we now know that in scientific community other views prevail. We read:
The concept of instinct does not, therefore, entail an inflexible notion of development. On the contrary, it is quite compatible with the idea that developmental outcomes are contingent on environmental conditions, and with the idea that learning plays an important part in development. Dylan Evans
From Oxford companion to the body
Learning
- Darwin meets Lamarck — the co-evolution of genes and learning Behavioural Inheritance in Evolution
By Eytan Avital
David Yellin College of Education, Jerusalem
In this chapter we are going to look at tradition, genes and learning all at once, as they interact during evolution. We have shown in previous chapters how, irrespective of any genetic change, social learning can lead to independent cultural evolution and promote speciation. When the role of the transmission of learnt information is recognised, interpretations of the evolution of many important behaviours are altered. However, for a more complete picture of what happens during behavioural evolution, we need to look at the type of genetic changes that occur during the evolution of the mechanisms of learning and the various forms of memory. We need to know what drives.— that the evolution of learning is, to a large extent, self-propelled.
#if this happens, learning has the power to invoke evolution
If niche construction happens then .. This body of theory supports the view that the complementary nature of organisms and their environment is not just the result of the single process of adaptation by natural selection. Rather, evolution is a two-way process, in which niche construction and natural selection operate in parallel, but also interact.
Read more: Niche Construction - Evolution from Molecules to Men - Selection, Environment, Organisms, Evolutionary, Environments, and Process
.
The new branch of research on epigenetics has overturned our established concepts about learning and evolution and new advances are expected to be made. We read:
Most epigenetic changes only occur within the course of one individual organism's lifetime, but, if a mutation in the DNA has been caused in sperm or egg cell that results in fertilization, then some epigenetic changes are inherited from one generation to the next.[9] This raises the question of whether or not epigenetic changes in an organism can alter the basic structure of its DNA (see Evolution, below), a form of Lamarckism. Wikipedia. Molecular basis of epigenetics.
Epigenetic changes of this type thus have the potential to direct increased frequencies of permanent genetic mutation. DNA methylation patterns are known to be established and modified in response to environmental factors by a complex interplay of at least three independent DNA methyltransferases
Wikipedia. epigenetics. mechanism
It has also been speculated that organisms may take advantage of differential mutation rates associated with epigenetic features to control the mutation rates of particular genes.[37] Interestingly, recent analysis have suggested that members of the APOBEC family of cytosine deaminases are capable of simultaneously mediating genetic and epigenetic inheritance using similar molecular mechanism
Wikipedia. evolution
the "rules governing physiological regulation and cellular and higher levels of organization are located not in the genome, but in interactive epigenetic networks which themselves organize genomic response to environmental signaling" (Strohman, R. 1994. Epigenesis: the missing beat in biotechnology? Biotechnology Feb;12(2):156-64) of evolution process and its cesses
Why do I link epigenetics with learning?
Because environmental factors are information, namely learning material, and are those which, during individual’s life span, cause the epigenetic effect.
Darwin accepts interact between environment and organism only during individual lifespan, so any basic change in organism can take place only by natural selection and mutations. He uses this artificial time factor to adaptation evolution and finally to life itself and I think this is utterly wrong. Life, learning and evolution are strong natural powers and it is improbable that they follow time factors. It is only logical to expect that they follow the most potent factor, that of continuity, from the appearance of first organic proteins up to mankind. This continuum of evolution is succeeded, apart from epigenetics mainly, by deeper learning mechanisms (empathic transfer, intelligent communication), unstoppably transferring evolutional learning material through generations to genome.
At phylogenic stage these mechanisms, together with natural selection and mutations are working in parallel. In the case of mutations we think that epigenetic information may have an enhancing role, by reducing stableness of DNA bonds, or by increasing the rate of mutations, as epigenetics suggest (Wikipedia).
Darwin excludes that learning can change DNA. Today epigenetics leave the door open, carefully though, to this possibility. Biologists wonder if perigenome changes are enough to explain new species creation. DNA change can happen over million years. So proof is difficult. But this doesn’t give the right to anybody to aphoristically exclude it.
On other hand empathy and intelligent communication (basic learning mechanisms) can work over millions of years, alone or in conjunction with mutations and natural selection, so to be able to lead to basic changes in species.
At the same moment information reception and diffusion inside the organism is
As we know N.S, even primordial one, has memory, accumulated and classified, so it is logical to think that accumulated information-irritations of same nature, but always having the element of danger and discontent, when reaching a critical
l Empathy and intelligent communication.
I may am wrong, but I think there isn’t any scientific work on empathy’s significance to species evolution.
Empathy was not known to Darwin. Not the mirror neurons either. I think that evolutionists had not given the proper importance to these two knowledge transfer mechanisms.
Intelligent communication is learning mechanism working with empathy in higher organisms, with relatively grown up central neural system, by which parents teach siblings and give them useful knowledge.
I think they are the missing link of nature’s continuity from learning to species evolution. As they can transfer knowledge from generation to generation, are also able to act and cause changes on basic genome structures), that could lead, in cooperation, or not, with mutations and natural selection, to new species. So, as I suppose that Darwin didn’t know about empathy, it was not improbable of him to eliminate learning’s importance to evolution process. But we now know. And we know that empathy, more so in lower animals and intelligent communication in higher ones, and at the same time working in combination, they are very important evolution factors, as they transfer so useful information from generation to generation and have been neglected so far.
Mirror neurons. This finding has substantiated empathy’s significance.
Punctuated equilibrium and stasis.
These concepts are obviously in contrast of Darwin’s basic idea of gradual species change.
Thus punctuated equilibrium contradicts some of Darwin's ideas regarding the specific mechanisms of evolution, but generally accords with Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection.[42]
Eldredge and Gould proposed that the degree of gradualism commonly attributed to Charles Darwin is virtually nonexistent in the fossil record, and that stasis dominates the history of most fossil species
Darwin had noted on his 1844 Essay, "Better begin with this: If species really, after catastrophes, created in showers world over, my theory false."[42]
Origin of Species Darwin wrote that "the periods during which species have undergone modification, though long as measured in years, have probably been short in comparison with the periods during which they retain the same form."[44]
One cell organisms.
When we come to one cell organisms, we can’t use of course neurogenic evolution theory. But we can expand the basis of my hypothesis, so to include neurogenic theory as well: in neuro-genic theory I treated knowledge as an enriched information, which is the corner stone of evolution. The same idea applies to one cell organisms. Information from environment meats living cell and causes a simple reaction. This reaction has an effect on inner parts of the cell and other cells near it. So we have here in away a mode of learning arc, where neural system is substituted by chemical or biological reactions.
Proteins
Proteins in a living cell have the ability to react to stimuli (information) and convey a type of information from its one end to the other, and to its near substances. This is how differentiation —adaptation begins.
So, material and information are the cornerstones of life and consequently of evolution. They form life’s basic dipole. Both are equally important for life.
Now we have to answer to the inevitable question: Who has made information so important?
And the answer is: the One who has made universe and has put universe laws. Significance of function of information is a universal law for life, equivalent to others.
It is evident that neural system’s role in the above process is crucial. Neural tissue isn’t just another tissue amongst others. It ‘thinks, supervises, decides ‘rules evolution, and at the end life. It is being acting like God. But if this is the case, who does put the rules for its own evolution? Is it auto-regulated? Is its thinking a result of its own evolution? OR.
This is what I mean by saying that my theory brings closer evolutionists and creationists. Now at least we can know where exactly their difference lies and where biology could search and may give, or not, the final solution to the Big Question.
Z. K
E mail: zikont@hotmail.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Adminnemooseus, posted 02-22-2011 10:43 PM Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

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