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Author Topic:   How Many Gauss Does It Take To Screw In a Hemoglobin Molecule?
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 6188 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1 of 9 (305986)
04-22-2006 5:35 PM


Although this is a somewhat light-hearted question, I really would like an actual answer (if one is even possible).
Here's the issue: I was recently confronted by a "true believer". Not, as you might expect based on my previous postings on this forum, a Christian "True Believer™", but rather a true believer in the efficacy of magnets. In particular, the efficacy of magnets in your shoes to keep your feet from becoming tired. I kid you not. And yes, I know that the basic "kitchen magnet" - soft iron lightly magnetized - that would be found in a shoe could have no conceivable effect on anything. I pointed out that even an electro-magnet would have to be practically inconceivably powerful to affect the iron atoms in a hemoglobin molecule.
Her response? "Well, how powerful would it have to be?"
My response? "Err, I'll have to get back to you." IOW, I have no clue.
So my question: hypothetically speaking, how powerful would an electro-magnet have to be to affect the iron in the hemobglobin molecule of an average human standing next to it (basically touching)? Does the question even make sense?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Modulous, posted 04-22-2006 5:52 PM Quetzal has replied
 Message 3 by Trixie, posted 04-22-2006 5:58 PM Quetzal has replied

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 301 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 2 of 9 (305990)
04-22-2006 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Quetzal
04-22-2006 5:35 PM


Well, my immediate thought is the MRI machine. They are measured up to 6T, which does have a tiny temporary effect on the body I believe. This is compared with kitchen magnets which are like 0.1T, and I'm sure I've heard of 10T magnets being used. There seems to be some notable effects at about 8T.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Quetzal, posted 04-22-2006 5:35 PM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Quetzal, posted 04-22-2006 6:26 PM Modulous has not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 4022 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 3 of 9 (305993)
04-22-2006 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Quetzal
04-22-2006 5:35 PM


Does this help?
I came across the following info at this site
Magnet therapy doesn’t work - Skeptico
Oxygenated blood is repelled by a magnetic field and deoxygenated blood is attracted, both of these affects are only very slight. If the effects weren't slight, you would tend to explode in an MRI scanner.
the magnetic susceptibility of blood is far too low to create any movement of blood even in the intense (1 - 6 Tesla - about 10,000 to 60,000 times the magnetic field of the earth) magnetic fields found in clinical MRI scanners.
The above quote is from a poster by the name of Prometheus, I can claim no credit for it at all and can't vouch for it's accuracy.
Prometheus also pints out that magnet therapy, if it had any effect, would tend to attract deoxygenated blood to the site of the magnet (ie the problem part of the body) and repel oxygenated blood, thus neatly having the opposite effect to that which is claimed.
Edited to try to get a working link
This message has been edited by Trixie, 04-22-2006 06:00 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Quetzal, posted 04-22-2006 5:35 PM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Quetzal, posted 04-22-2006 6:53 PM Trixie has not replied
 Message 7 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-23-2006 1:01 AM Trixie has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 6188 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 4 of 9 (306006)
04-22-2006 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Modulous
04-22-2006 5:52 PM


Thanks for the article Mod. However, it doesn't appear from the article that they noted any significant effect at field strength up to about 8T - or call it 80,000 gauss. Since this is already some whopping-large-number stronger than any bi-polar bar magnet I can imagine, that in itself seems to blow the "wear magnets in your shoes" routine to smithereens.

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 Message 2 by Modulous, posted 04-22-2006 5:52 PM Modulous has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 6188 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 5 of 9 (306012)
04-22-2006 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Trixie
04-22-2006 5:58 PM


Re: Does this help?
Thanks Trixie,
I'd forgotten about the diamagnetism issue. I think that's probably where all the hooplah about magnet-healing etc comes from. I found an interesting article from Skeptical Inquirer called MAgnetic Therapy: Plausible Attraction?. If you look at the section on the effects on the human body (around the bottom third of the article), there's quite a good bit of debunking of the magnet therapy claims. I like the bit about a neat article where a field of 160,000 gauss was able to suspend water inside the coil. However, it appears there is NO effect whatsoever from any tested magnetic field on the iron atoms in hemoglobin. There are, however, apparently effects of pulsed magnetic fields of as low as 1 T because of induced electrical fields.
Of course, that pretty much answers the kitchen-magnet-in-a-shoe thingy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Trixie, posted 04-22-2006 5:58 PM Trixie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Son Goku, posted 04-22-2006 8:10 PM Quetzal has not replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 9 (306019)
04-22-2006 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Quetzal
04-22-2006 6:53 PM


Re: Does this help?
Due to the round-about way Magnetism operates and its physical origin, the field would have to be ludicrously strong.
In terms of pure Magnetism, without any Electric Field being induced, I'd guess in excess of 10 Tesla.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Quetzal, posted 04-22-2006 6:53 PM Quetzal has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4244 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 7 of 9 (306054)
04-23-2006 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Trixie
04-22-2006 5:58 PM


Re: Does this help?
prometheus pints out.
i'm sure the rock approved the pinting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Trixie, posted 04-22-2006 5:58 PM Trixie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Quetzal, posted 04-23-2006 11:16 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 6188 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 8 of 9 (306097)
04-23-2006 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by macaroniandcheese
04-23-2006 1:01 AM


Re: Does this help?
"It comes in pints?" [/LOTR mode]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-23-2006 1:01 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-23-2006 3:26 PM Quetzal has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4244 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 9 of 9 (306146)
04-23-2006 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Quetzal
04-23-2006 11:16 AM


Re: Does this help?
blood does. hence my amusement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Quetzal, posted 04-23-2006 11:16 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
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