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Author Topic:   Is Evolution Intellectually Viable?
Ahmad
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 91 (21581)
11-05-2002 8:50 AM


Does it sound logical or reasonable (when not even a single chance-formed protein can exist), that millions of such proteins combined in an order to produce the cell of a living thing; and that billions of cells managed to form and then came together by chance to produce living things; and that from them generated fish; and that those that passed to land turned into reptiles, birds, and that this is how all the millions of different species (including us) on earth were formed?
Salam,
Ahmad

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by John, posted 11-05-2002 9:20 AM Ahmad has not replied
 Message 4 by Percy, posted 11-05-2002 9:21 AM Ahmad has not replied
 Message 6 by mark24, posted 11-05-2002 10:54 AM Ahmad has not replied
 Message 8 by nos482, posted 11-05-2002 5:25 PM Ahmad has not replied
 Message 11 by Tranquility Base, posted 11-05-2002 7:34 PM Ahmad has not replied
 Message 85 by Brad McFall, posted 12-22-2002 1:12 AM Ahmad has not replied
 Message 87 by PrimatePaul, posted 01-24-2003 11:02 AM Ahmad has not replied

John
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 91 (21584)
11-05-2002 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ahmad
11-05-2002 8:50 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Ahmad:
when not even a single chance-formed protein can exist

And your evidence for this statement is what?
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Ahmad, posted 11-05-2002 8:50 AM Ahmad has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22689
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 4 of 91 (21585)
11-05-2002 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ahmad
11-05-2002 8:50 AM


Your question includes a Creationist characterization of abiogenesis and evolution. Naturally any evolutionist would reply that it doesn't sound logical or reasonable, but only because these aren't the views of science on these topics.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Ahmad, posted 11-05-2002 8:50 AM Ahmad has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by John, posted 11-05-2002 9:29 AM Percy has replied

John
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 91 (21586)
11-05-2002 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Percy
11-05-2002 9:21 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Percipient:
Your question includes a Creationist characterization of abiogenesis and evolution. Naturally any evolutionist would reply that it doesn't sound logical or reasonable, but only because these aren't the views of science on these topics.
--Percy

ummmmm...... where is message #2?
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Percy, posted 11-05-2002 9:21 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Percy, posted 11-05-2002 4:23 PM John has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5306 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 6 of 91 (21588)
11-05-2002 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ahmad
11-05-2002 8:50 AM


Ahmad,
I thought you were talking about evolution, but judging from your actual post you are talking about abiogenesis. Make your mind up!
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Ahmad, posted 11-05-2002 8:50 AM Ahmad has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22689
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 7 of 91 (21594)
11-05-2002 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by John
11-05-2002 9:29 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by John:
ummmmm...... where is message #2?[/B][/QUOTE]
Boy, nothing slips by you guys, does it? Okay, you got me, I confess, I did it. I once again accidentally posted as Admin instead of Percipient. I'll probably get suspended now. Geez!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by John, posted 11-05-2002 9:29 AM John has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by nos482, posted 11-05-2002 5:26 PM Percy has not replied

nos482
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 91 (21598)
11-05-2002 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ahmad
11-05-2002 8:50 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Ahmad:
Does it sound logical or reasonable (when not even a single chance-formed protein can exist), that millions of such proteins combined in an order to produce the cell of a living thing; and that billions of cells managed to form and then came together by chance to produce living things; and that from them generated fish; and that those that passed to land turned into reptiles, birds, and that this is how all the millions of different species (including us) on earth were formed?
Salam,
Ahmad

Can anyone tell me the fallacy he is using here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Ahmad, posted 11-05-2002 8:50 AM Ahmad has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by TrueCreation, posted 11-05-2002 6:31 PM nos482 has not replied
 Message 23 by Andya Primanda, posted 11-05-2002 11:34 PM nos482 has not replied
 Message 24 by Andya Primanda, posted 11-05-2002 11:35 PM nos482 has not replied
 Message 25 by John, posted 11-06-2002 1:04 AM nos482 has not replied

nos482
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 91 (21599)
11-05-2002 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Percy
11-05-2002 4:23 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Percipient:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by John:
ummmmm...... where is message #2?[/B][/QUOTE]
Boy, nothing slips by you guys, does it? Okay, you got me, I confess, I did it. I once again accidentally posted as Admin instead of Percipient. I'll probably get suspended now. Geez!
--Percy[/B][/QUOTE]
That's ok, you'll be in good company.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Percy, posted 11-05-2002 4:23 PM Percy has not replied

TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 91 (21609)
11-05-2002 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by nos482
11-05-2002 5:25 PM


"Can anyone tell me the fallacy he is using here? "
--Strawman? Or maybe Misrepresentation? Wait, even worse, a misrepresented strawman. :\
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by nos482, posted 11-05-2002 5:25 PM nos482 has not replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 91 (21618)
11-05-2002 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ahmad
11-05-2002 8:50 AM


Ahmad
Your representaion of the evoltuionary scenario is too simplistic and your facts about proteins are plain wrong. Take it from a creationist who does protein engineering and follows the directed evoltuion literature.
Nevertheless, your basic point of view is correct, evolutionists need to have just as much faith as deists (EDIT: I mean theist), if not more.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 11-05-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Ahmad, posted 11-05-2002 8:50 AM Ahmad has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by nos482, posted 11-05-2002 7:57 PM Tranquility Base has replied

nos482
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 91 (21621)
11-05-2002 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tranquility Base
11-05-2002 7:34 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:

Nevertheless, your basic point of view is correct, evolutionists need to have just as much faith as deists, if not more.

Please, in this context faith is irrelevant since there is more than enough credible evidence in favor of evolution to show that it is real. You may as well say the same of gravity. All Creationists have is faith since there is no credible evidence in favor of it.
BTW, what does deism have to do with this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tranquility Base, posted 11-05-2002 7:34 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Tranquility Base, posted 11-05-2002 8:02 PM nos482 has replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 91 (21623)
11-05-2002 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by nos482
11-05-2002 7:57 PM


^ Doesn't deists mean believers in God (deities)?
And I believe in evolution too - just not the molecules to man extrapolation. I could be sitting next to you in a seminar on genomic evolution saying 'Amen collegue' and yet still be a YEC. Genomes have evolved.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 11-05-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by nos482, posted 11-05-2002 7:57 PM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by nos482, posted 11-05-2002 8:07 PM Tranquility Base has replied

nos482
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 91 (21624)
11-05-2002 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tranquility Base
11-05-2002 8:02 PM


Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
^ Doesn't deists mean believers in God (deities)?
Deists are those who believe in god, but that god did his/her/its thing and left us to our own "devices".
Theist:
1. One who believes in the existence of a god or gods
Deist:
1. A person who believes that God created the universe and then abandoned it
And I believe in evolution too - just not the molecules to man extrapolation.
Than you don't actually believe in evolution. What you believe in is a creationist's cartoon version of evolution.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 11-05-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Tranquility Base, posted 11-05-2002 8:02 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by TrueCreation, posted 11-05-2002 8:13 PM nos482 has replied
 Message 16 by Tranquility Base, posted 11-05-2002 8:15 PM nos482 has replied

TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 91 (21625)
11-05-2002 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by nos482
11-05-2002 8:07 PM


"Than you don't actually believe in evolution."
--Evolution = Change through time. Or would you rather prefer a change of allele frequencies over time. Either way, as I too find no difficulty with accepting this, is accepting evolution.
--Edit - With your edited addition of "What you believe in is a creationist's cartoon version of evolution." It is obvious that as I explained above, this is not a 'creationist's cartoon', dispite how much you may desire that it be the contrary.
------------------
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 11-05-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by nos482, posted 11-05-2002 8:07 PM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by nos482, posted 11-05-2002 8:31 PM TrueCreation has replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 91 (21626)
11-05-2002 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by nos482
11-05-2002 8:07 PM


Fair enough Nos.
I take your point. I checked it on dictionary.com so it's not just an E vs C definition.
You're right I mean theist.
My so-called cartoon version of evolution is the evoltuion supported by the data! Allelic substitutions, gene duplictions, deletions etc etc. Adaptaiton of genes to the environemtn. Sure. It's all fact.
Did a functioning human genome arrive this way in the first place? That's not fact and I don't accept that sort of evolution as proven.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 11-05-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by nos482, posted 11-05-2002 8:07 PM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by nos482, posted 11-05-2002 8:53 PM Tranquility Base has replied

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