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Member (Idle past 1793 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Are creationist crticisms of ToE based upon the assumption that creation happened? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peter Member (Idle past 1793 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I've asked this question in a number of different ways over the
years and never got a satisfactory answer (and I am open to one). If one didn't hold a creationist belief, what about ToE wouldone object to? What evidence exists that would indicate creation (withoutany reference to any religious system that has ever prevailed)? Isn't the majority of anti-evolutionary thinking biased bythe assumption that creation is, in fact, the way it happened? The creationist approach seems to be this:: 1) Creation is what happened.2) If we add X idea to the Biblical creation account Y data supports it. 3) If we assume creation Y data must be wrong, so what techniques could be wrong that are used to measure Y data. All anti-evo discussions I have witnessed boil down to acceptanceof an unsupported creation assumption. I have not seen any statement of what one would expect the worldto look like if creation were the key (even ID works backwards just in case anyone was about to claim otherwise).
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DC85 Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: |
I guess it all chains Back to the Natural Human way of thinking since in Our little Human world is made therefore Everything Must be made. I hate Being the type of person that sits there wondering the big WHY? sometimes but oh well.... some people can care less and just follow what they are told which is what creationist are they Just Follow without asking why
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Flamingo Chavez Inactive Member |
for us laymen, what is "ToE?"
------------------"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9012 From: Canada Joined: |
Theory of Evolution ToE
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Flamingo Chavez Inactive Member |
"Isn't the majority of anti-evolutionary thinking biased by
the assumption that creation is, in fact, the way it happened?" I would agree with this, most literal creationists that I've debated against seem to follow a similar thought patern.1) I believe in God 2) I believe in the Bible 3) The Bible says it happened this way, so thats what happened Most people can't even give me a good explanation why one SHOULD interpret the creation account literally, especcialy in the light of good theological analysis. By the way, I'm an evolutionary creationist... As for any evidence, I can't point to anything beyond my own personal narrative. Most ppl will not take this for evidence at all. I can tslk to you sbout two (what seem to me) miracles that have saved my life. I can talk to you about how a relationship with my creator has changed my life. But their is nothing quantifiable about my beliefs. I really wouldn't want it any other way. ------------------"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9012 From: Canada Joined: |
As for any evidence, I can't point to anything beyond my own personal narrative.
And I, for one, wouldn't argue with you at all. Unless you want to pick on me for not seeing it your way that is. ![]()
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Peter Member (Idle past 1793 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Since you are an evolutionary creationist we mainly
are in agreement (I got that sense when discussing Bible literalism anyhow). We may disagree about the unknowable source of life,the universe, and everything ... but what's wrong with that so long as we avoid persecution and jihad.
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DC85 Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: |
true as long as we take Facts into account its alright....... and not just Follow (what I think) a form of Belief that is far over do for change.
you can Believe in a God as long as you take what we know as facts into Account. not just say this is it and there is no other way it can be. you need to Keep your mind open also have you noticed? in topics like this . creationist seem to never post [This message has been edited by DC85, 05-16-2003]
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2617 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
I'm new here, but I do notice arguments on these boards that seem the same as arguments I've had over many years with creationist. It all seems to hinge on the one problem that they all have with evolution, even the ones that, for argument's sake, will admit a possibility of no god. Everyone seems to want to believe (or HAVE to) that mankind is special, that we were an intended outcome. With this in mind the probability is too staggering for them. The odds of any particular end point being "the" end point are improbable, but the existance of "any" endpoint is a necessity. Evolution does not have any out-come in mind, but an out-come will occur. IMHO it isn't even the fear that there might not be a god directing everything, it's the fear that we aren't special.
____________________Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
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Peter Member (Idle past 1793 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I have noticed the lack of fundamenalist creationist
posts ... and evolutionry-creationist stances are Ok by me since they DO take into account the data and applied evidential interpretations. I would have thought that reformation in Christianity wouldbe a priority ... after all didn't Jesus get nailed to a tree for suggesting that the predominant Hebrew religion needed an updating?
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Peter Member (Idle past 1793 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I have to agree about the regurgitation of creationist
arguments ... one has to get used to that sort of thing in this 'great debate'. And I also agree that the thought that humans are nothingspecial appears to underly the rejection of evolution more than anything else.
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nator Member (Idle past 2484 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But I think we ARE special and unique as a species. We are, after all, amazingly sucessful. So successful that we may be the demise of our planet. We can manipulate our environment (and adapt, through use of technology, to different envirenments) to our benefit like no other species we are aware of, except maybe bacteria. Bacteria don't have self-consciousness, thopugh, so we are special in two ways right there. However, I also believe that every species is special and unique! All of this "specialness" and "uniqueness" isn't evidence for the supernatural. It does make me find profundity and beauty in randomness, nature, physics, and time.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1793 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I'd agree that all species are unique
![]() As to special ... well it has an unfortunate numberof undertones for my liking. Humans are just animals, and by no means the only successful species, nor the only species that can manipulate its environment ... we are just better adapted to do certain types of manipulation. No amount of specialness is evidence of God, but the possibilitythat we came about ... well ... just because we did rather than as a part of some grand design seems to scare the hell out of some people (or into them I suppose ![]()
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bulldog98 Inactive Member |
ToE not only suggests a rejection of the notion that humans are "special," but also suggests that we have ancestors in common with worms, "pond slime," and other "nasty" creatures. Not to mention, many creationists still use the arguments, "I didn't evolve from a monkey!" I think a lot of it stems from ignorance and misinformation, as well as the simple denial that we may, in fact, have quite a bit in common with bacteria.
***whistling*** Just killing time until the Christian literalists come in with their responses... [This message has been edited by bulldog98, 05-20-2003]
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NeilUnreal Inactive Member |
quote: I've said this before, but this is exactly where I think Darwin made his biggest mistake. He and Huxley would have had a much easier time of it if he'd claimed that we were descended from something really cool like a shark or a tiger. Subsequent generations of scientists could then have taken the heat when they figured out where we really came from... -Neil
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