Re: Sin, Is it God or is it a man made concept?

Jesus of the new testament died for "our" sins? We are born with the stain of original sin. This concept came from the book of Genesis The Garden of Eden story. Eve gave the fruit to Adam and they both ate from it thus condemning all of mankind.All our fates lay in the hands of 2 people. That is not free will in my book. God rather than punish Adam and Eve should of wiped the slate clean and started over. God has no problem destroying the whole Earth but he would not wack Adam and Eve? I mean eventually he had to have his son killed in order to wipe the stain of sin from the very people he made. If one questions the Garden of Eden story then the concept of original sin collapses, and with no original sin the concept of needing a redeemer collapses. The Levitical laws of blood sacrifice cancelled through the blood of Jesus. If one questions the need for blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin then the whole concept of Christianity falls into question .Once Jesus is in the hands of the Romans his execution must have been a shock for his followers. God hanging on a cross flayed. I am almost certain this was why resurection accounts where written 70 years after his death. And continued to be written each deifying Jesus more and more until at last he is God himself. This is why I believe It is such a staunch point to believe all of the Bible, because if one word is not true then the rest of it may be questionable. What exactly is this original sin that I am born with and why is it I have it? And how come I have no choice in the matter? Does sin exist? Or is sin man made morality? Your thoughts. **forum members feel free to correct my interpretations.

Hi 1.61803Man made morality gets my vote.To make a rather broad generalization; because we are animals our selfish instincts sometimes get the better of our social instincts. The result can be called sin. Eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is an apt metaphor for the civilized notion that some behaviours are considered wrong (because they are harmful to a particular society).All societies need rules in order to exist. If a God is believed to have created said society, he/she/it will endorse those rules by default.Like a good salesman, Xianity exploits sin to the hilt. The real genius though is the invention of the 'soul'.

And what about OUR sins? Christ died for OUR sins, not for original sin. Original sin has nothing to do with atonement. In Leviticus they sacrificed animals when they sinned, they didn't do it for original sin. This is a common mistake. Original sin is not part of Christianity in this context.When we say Christ died for our sins that is exactly what we mean, the sins we make day to day. The only relevance Adam has is that he brought sin in, or accepted it, or even firstly sinned against God. No. We are born in a world with original sin. A world that suffers disease, man-made attributes, forsaken attributes. We are born innocent in my opinion. If you can quote original sin from the bible then I could maybe try and understand, however - to me, original sin is not relevant to an innocent child, yet a redeemer is still necessary. "Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof".

Ok Mike, then I ask why is Jesus' blood needed to atone for what we do? WE have free will, should we not atone for our choices. If Jesus IS God, then God killed himself so that we could be forgiven for sins against him? Why would God do that? Why does God NEED a blood sacrifice? Ok, why did God need a sacrifice of animals in order to "forgive" sin? One theory is: Levitical priest lived pretty good off of all those sacrifices in the temples. Do you think
perhaps it is possible this animal sacrifice thing could of been a way for priest to profit? And had nothing to do with God? Ok. then why would God make man and woman, give them a order to obey, knowing that they would SIN. Why would God destroy the whole Earth in flood for the wickedness of SIN? Sin that man kind must atone for in blood. Sin that God already knows we will commit. Sin that God already knows he will punish us for. Sin that God will kill himself as a human for, so that we would be forgiven for commiting the sin that he already knows we will do. I do not understand it. SIN we commit it and must ask for fogiveness for it in Jesus' name to be redeemed, But if we do not ask in Jesus name we will go to hell for it. That is it right? And the poor buggers that practice other religions just have to spend eternity in flames. What a concept.

---

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

Don't know. The bible says do not drink blood, for the life is in the blood. I guess it is God's porogative. Anything's possible. People would do anything to profit. However, Christ's sacrifice would no profit him anything in itself. Only God can forgive us of sin against him. It is also written that we should forgive one another, it is also written if we love each other (even the least of people) then we have loved God. The son of man will seperate the sheep from the goat.

Thank you Mike. I appreciate level headed honest answers. Even more do I appreciate that you do not pretend to know God's mind. Peace be with you.

---

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

No problem brother 1.61803. There's no point in pretending to have answers to questions if you don't have them.To be honest I've never really been asked those questions about the blood and sacrifices before. Are you atheist BTW?

I am a theist/de-nihilist..a theist, in denial of nihilism. I am looking for God but keep finding me.

---

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

Lets take it to another level.
Ravi Zacharias, a well known Christian apologist,states that Christianity is exclusive as a belief system because of the character of Jesus Christ. As far as sin is concerned, sin by definition is separation from God. Hinduism declares evil to be an illusion. Buddism would say that karma is at work. Only Christianity offers Christ Himself as the answer. He is the answer because He is not only God incarnate, He is life incarnate. By knowing Him, Sin loses its power to make us a seperate entity from our creator. Christians still sin, yet are never unaware of the battle or the solution.

So is sin someting that we can do without? If it separates us from God then why doesnt God just abolish sin. Free will? If man has free will then he chooses. But God knew from the start the choice so it is not free will. You can not have it both ways if there is sin then there is free will and God does not control. If God is in control then there is no free will and hence should be no sin. It really boils down to that. IMO. peace.

---

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

Knowing the choice doesn't mean it isn't free will. When satan tempted Christ, satan offered him a choice, but God said "tempt not the Lord thy God". Nevertheless, if God "seen" what was going to happen and "let" it he must be a supremely confident chap, in that - has he really "let" anything happen? Think about it.If we role the dice and God knows the result and moves not his hand, does that mean freewill exists? - Most definately. If he chooses to suffer for our sin surely he also (being God) has his own freewill. It is God's porogative as to how he would deal with things. It doesn't mean he is not in control.Satan also said "make this stone bread if you are the son of God" (similar words).Did God act? I trow not.

Hello Mike, I agree knowing the choice does not disallow free will. But If God is all powerful and in control of the Universe then how is it we can make a choice that is OUR own independant of God. If God is omnipotent then Humans are subjected to HIS control. Otherwise he is not omnipotent by definition. If we have free will and the ability to commit sin then God must be on the sidelines as a passive observer and not totally in control. Unless he only chooses to get involved SOMETIMES...which seems sort of silly in that he picks and chooses when to intervene. If the perfect world was made imperfect by sin then God made the world imperfect, If God made everything he made sin as well. Just some random thoughts from the peanut gallery. Peace.

---

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

Yes, it is incongruous, and the concept of "sin" requires a stretch to accommodate the interpretations as passed forward. The ancient doctrines used to explain sin are hardly acceptable in this day and age.The point you raise may not be essential to the general message of course, which certainly seems clear enough: Love Yahweh, and love your fellow men.Almost without more said, to love our lives, our existence, our neighbors, and even our enemies is the optimal insight for our, oh, so short, life in this world, is it not?Nevertheless, that you recognize the faulty ancient reasoning makes for opportunity, not to dismiss the message, but only the messengers of centuries old explanations.Concerning Sin, we can readily understand that the meaning of "sin," as described in Genesis 6, sets a precedent for rationality.God, the Almighty, Omnipotent Power, the Supreme Force, Reality of Life itself, deems that "sin" is significant enough to terminate "all flesh."Sin, in this context, seems very analogous to what Darwin might say is activity or failed adjustment in behavior that stifles adaptation needed in order to exist in an ever changing environment.The new Testament, of course, says that we must also adapt to the threat of maladjustment to one another.In summing, Sin, in regard to God (Father Nature) of the Old Testament seems to refer to man's behavior in regard to the external realities of life. In the New Testament, in rgard to our internal world of the mind, how we think, sin seems clearly to be defining our antipathy for one another.Two distinctly different matters, right?SIN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT:
Gen. 6:1 And it came to pass, when men (hominoids) began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,Gen. 6:2 That the sons of God (pre-Homo Spaiens) saw the daughters of men (Neanderthal) that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.Gen. 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit (of Natural Law) shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh (and must adapt to my Reality): yet his days, (Neanderthal) shall be an hundred and twenty (thousand) years.

I agree with what you say. (See I can be agreeable LOL.) And your message makes a good point..It boils down to the basic message of what Jesus's sacrifice at least to me means. Love. Peace be with you.

---

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

OK. say that I am the D.A. in your town. I have total power over the legal issues in the town. The laws are on the books and I have the power to throw anyone in jail for disobeying. Even if you were in your home, technically I am in control of the legal dealings within your home. If you sold drugs and I caught you, I would exercise my judgement on your crime. I choose, however, to not be quite so totalitarian and allow people the freedom to occupy their homes unbothered UNLESS their is some activity brought to my attention.
God is all knowing, so it is not as if He is unaware of human rebellion within our own spaces. Technically, He has the power to take over all activity everywhere, but because He chooses to allow human choice, we are "free' to disobey. God is temporarily allowing
evil to coexist in His realm. I need not convince you to agree with me because you have the right to disagree. Same with God. You are allowed to disagree with Him...for a while. Why fight Him, anyway? I take comfort in the fact that the Omnipotant Sky Daddy knows whats real and whats cool better than you or I or anyone ever COULD ever know. IT is all about Trust.