Should school teachers be allowed to impose corporal punishment on violent students?

Below is a commentary written by Hoppy Kercheval of WV. Hoppy is a radio personality who hosts a daily call-in show for 2 hours in the morning, M-F, frequently hosting everyone from Robert C. Byrd & Jay Rockefeller and other important state & federal politicians. He is probably best described as a moderate conservative. He has a daily commentary & today's was very interesting. I thought this forum might be a good place to discuss this.10/10/2005
Hoppy's Commentary For MondayTalkline Host Hoppy KerchevalThe principal at Summit Point Elementary School where I attended some years ago didn’t take any guff. I remember once when a group of the usual troublemakers was using the hallway water fountain to squirt kids Mr. Smith walked up behind one of the offenders and kicked him so hard in butt that the boy’s feet came off the ground.The hallway got quiet, order was restored and we all went back to our classrooms. Mr. Smith had handled yet another discipline problem in his own way. We feared, but respected Mr. Smith. We knew that if a kid acted up”any kid”he or she was in trouble with Mr. Smith.The “Mr. Smiths” exist now only in our memories. No teacher today would dare that sort of”shall we say--creative discipline unless they wanted to be hauled into court and/or lose their job.The Beckley Register-Herald newspaper reports that last week an 11-year-old sixth grader at Park Middle School assaulted a female teacher. The paper reports the student hit the woman twice in the face with his fists and pulled out a patch of her hair.A school custodian had to intervene. The paper also says school administrators were slow to respond so the teacher dialed 9-1-1. The police hauled away the miscreant, charging him with battery.Every time I talk with a schoolteacher I ask them about discipline in the classroom. Universally, they say it’s getting worse. They tell me about parents who won’t or can’t control their kids.The teachers also tell me that when they do discipline students for acting up they often hear from parents who rush to the defense of their children. Teachers and school administrators worry about lawsuits if they put their hands on students.I am told that teachers are supposed to be able to use “passive restraint” to protect themselves or defuse a violent situation, but it’s difficult to define that at the instant when trouble breaks out.Teachers also complain to me that disruptive students sent out of the classrooms often return soon after and the problems start all over. Who could blame a teacher for simply passing a nasty student on to the next grade just to get rid of him or her?We expect a lot from schoolteachers. Dysfunctional families turn education and socialization over to schools, but then schools and teachers are hamstrung from doing their jobs by excessive regulations and the fear of legal troubles.I know that the days of Mr. Smith’s style of discipline have passed, but it appears we’ve swung too far now the other way. One thing that has not changed since Mr. Smith’s day is that actions should have consequences.And teachers and school officials should be fully empowered and protected to administer the consequences.

This is the original story that prompted Hoppy Kercheval's commentary.Link:http://www.register-herald.com/....html/resources_printstoryThis message has been edited by FairWitness, 10-10-2005 06:26 PM

I would have thought that regular laws with regard to self defence would apply here?other than that you get into the territory of defining "reasonable force". The christian brothers schools in ireland years ago had a pretty bad reputation of brutal punishment at the hands of ruthless brothers.
I didn't attend these schools myself but ahd friends who did. the stories of beatings were enough to make you wince.If you begin to allow/condone corporal punishment in any way this WILL be the end result. A teacher with a grudge against the world and/or anger management problems will get pushed to far by a cheeky kid and the next thing you know there's a boxing match going on.Not the best example to set for kids on how to settle disputes.

which admittedly is some 37 years ago, something like this would NOT have taken place, period. Never would ANY student have dared to put their hands aggressively on a teacher & really not even affectionately either. The relationship between students & their teachers was one of admiration. There was a professional level of decorum maintained at all times. IF you egregiously misbehaved, you were sent to the principal's office where you were dealt with severely, sometimes paddled, then your parents were called & sometimes your parents were so angry they paddled you again, right there in front of the principal & then again when they got you home. Teachers cannot be expected to be good teachers when they have ill-mannered, violent students. This has got to stop. In a case like this, a teacher should be permitted to grab a hold of this uncivilized little brat & paddle the living daylights out of him in front of the entire classroom. Otherwise the teacher will never have control of the classroom again.This message has been edited by FairWitness, 10-10-2005 05:08 PM

In some ways, I agree with you. However, I don't think allowing teachers to paddle students is the solution. I have always supported permanent expulsion on second strike.

A teacher hits the wall after attack by student
By MATTHEW BOWERS, The Virginian-Pilot
© January 17, 2005Link:http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/print.cfm?story=8069...This message has been edited by FairWitness, 10-10-2005 06:23 PM

that a child of 11 would even consider punching his teacher in the face, twice, & pulling her hair out? And you think there should be a second strike rule for this egregious act of violence? No way in my estimation. This child needs to be immediately expelled, no second chance at this school. He needs to go to a special ed school that knows how to control violent children.If you allow a violent student back into a school after having done something like to a teacher then you diminish the value & respect due to that teacher & all the teachers, really, in the eyes of students. You simply cannot allow this to happen without dire consequences as a result. There's too much at stake, you risk the integrity of the entire educational institution.

Link:http://fox61.trb.com/...k1006.artoct06,0,7044803,print.storyThis message has been edited by FairWitness, 10-10-2005 06:21 PM

How about stating your interpertation of the article or issue and then simply providing a link for those who might want more information.Cut & Paste is discouraged here. We prefer debating the person rather than just some article.Welcome to EvC. At the bottom of this message you'll find links to several subjects that might make your stay here more enjoyable.

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Link: Student found not guilty of assaulting her teacher This message has been edited by FairWitness, 10-10-2005 06:19 PM

I didn't realize you only wanted opinions & positions typed with links provided. I'll refrain from further pasting of articles.

I went back & edited those posts, except for the first one, & provided just the links. Is that what you wanted?

Better, but what we really like is a discussion of the issues.

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Rose tinted glasses perhaps? I didn't go to school 37 years ago, but from speaking to my father, he didn't have very much admiration for his teachers, fear, yes. Admiration, no.For my time at school, the key thing was, whatever punishment I recieved at school I would recieve it 10 fold at home. the worst part of any misbehaviour on my part was when my parents found out. I think perhaps some of that is missing today. Don't get me wrong there were plenty of little shits about when I was young, some went on to have long and distinguished careers in crime. But I don't recall anyone evre hitting a teacher, and I'd venture that this is still very much a rarity.There are numerous reasons for kids behaving like this, although not one of them is an excuse. I fail to see how beating a child with a bat could possibly teach them that violence should be left outside the classroom. Brutality breed brutality. repect breeds respect.I know kids who were beaten when young by parents/teachers, that is now their way to settle disputes. If things don't go their way, they punch their way out of the situation.I would like to think that there would/should have been another way to prevent this.

Well, not everyone who was spanked or beaten as a child & I have to tell you most from my era were, especially by today's standards, grew up to become monsters or irreparably emotionally scarred. We became civilized, respectful, taxpaying, contributing members of society. We learned how to cope, we become tough, resilient and considerate. All character traits sorely lacking in today's youth. Spare the rod, spoil (or should that be changed to; ruin) the child.