Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 50 (9179 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Post Volume: Total: 918,208 Year: 5,465/9,624 Month: 490/323 Week: 130/204 Day: 4/26 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Freewill and hardened hearts
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 45 (27908)
12-26-2002 10:52 AM


Freewill?
From what I read about the god of the bible, and from what posters here and elsewhere state, that it is our free will that god gave us to find him or her. If that is the case, why does the god of the bible give free will when it does the following:
1: Drowning thousands, even infacts and unborns, instead of going to them and saying repent or suffer the consequences.
2: Hardening hearts instead of enlightening them. The Pharoah(sp?) in Exodus, the god of the bible had his heart hardened and his mind changed (sorry heart = mind so no "god didn't affect his mind" stuff).
So, if god finds it easier to kill people, harden their hearts, have his chosen slaughter other tribes (save for the virgin females who are to be used as concubines) and other not so nice things to threaten people into believing in it, what is free will for? It would seem then the god of the bible is more interested in force and fear rather than love and caring. It uses the stick and the threat of death both physical and spiritual if we fall away. Yet makes really no attempt to change our minds for the better, prefering to make people's minds even more against it or just killing them off.
Why is that?
PS:
On another thread somebody pointed out that the god of the bible was concerned about the welfare of women and children and that's why it allowed them to take wives from the enemies who they slaughtered. The problem was that only virgin females were taken. So are we agreed that this was a sexual spoils of war that the god of the bible let his followers regvel in as a reward? I guess rape is ok if your god says do.
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-26-2002 1:05 PM Mr. Davies has not replied
 Message 6 by zipzip, posted 12-26-2002 11:55 PM Mr. Davies has replied
 Message 15 by NeoPagan, posted 12-31-2002 4:57 PM Mr. Davies has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 45 (27921)
12-26-2002 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mr. Davies
12-26-2002 10:52 AM


I guess I won't (yet) close this topic - BUT - might the opening message be better moved to be part of the "Free Will" topic, at http://EvC Forum: free will -->EvC Forum: free will ?
Just trying to fight topic fragmentation and topic reduncancy.
Comments? My e-mail address is below.
Adminnemooseus
------------------
{mnmoose@lakenet.com}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-26-2002 10:52 AM Mr. Davies has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by joz, posted 12-26-2002 4:30 PM Adminnemooseus has replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 45 (27932)
12-26-2002 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
12-26-2002 1:05 PM


Ummm its already there Moose, message 5 I think, in fact Forgiven asked Mr Davies to start a new one so that he and I could get on with what we were discussing without to much of a detour.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-26-2002 1:05 PM Adminnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-26-2002 7:09 PM joz has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Inactive Administrator


Message 4 of 45 (27940)
12-26-2002 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by joz
12-26-2002 4:30 PM


D'oh - Well, seems a bit silly to me, to split the topic, but I guess we'll see where this one goes.
Adminnemooseus
------------------
{mnmoose@lakenet.com}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by joz, posted 12-26-2002 4:30 PM joz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-26-2002 8:56 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 45 (27949)
12-26-2002 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Adminnemooseus
12-26-2002 7:09 PM


So far, it's going nowhere.
I guess these are hard answers that will require even more literal attempts at reading the bible.
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-26-2002 7:09 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
zipzip
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 45 (27951)
12-26-2002 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mr. Davies
12-26-2002 10:52 AM


Maybe if you sounded more like you wanted a legitimate discussion ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-26-2002 10:52 AM Mr. Davies has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-27-2002 8:26 AM zipzip has not replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 45 (27961)
12-27-2002 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by zipzip
12-26-2002 11:55 PM


To zipzip:
I am not sure why this is not a legitmate discussion.
Could you enlighten me as to why it is not?
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by zipzip, posted 12-26-2002 11:55 PM zipzip has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Kolyahu, posted 12-27-2002 9:00 AM Mr. Davies has replied

  
Kolyahu
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 45 (27964)
12-27-2002 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Mr. Davies
12-27-2002 8:26 AM


B"H
Oiy Vey! The question was If there is a god, why is there such things as earthquakes,etc. and bad things that cause death? Why give man a free choice? These are not hard to understand, if one takes the proper views of what the biblical power of one (God)considers LIFE. I'd say that the script-ure tells us blatantly that it is written from a perspective outside of man's. Therefore, when it discusses Life, and choices, it is not from our level of thinking that the text tries to convey these things.It also asks us why we continue to attempt an understanding of Israelite theology through non-jewish mindsets. In fact the word 'God" is Not even a Semitic word. How can we continue to apply this alien word and it ideologies to a set of writings that expressly tell us not to? Peace? why preach peace when the world is at war? What are we doing that causes us so much division, strife, and tyrrany? The fact that "man's thoughts are not His thoughts, and man's ways are not His ways" should tell us that we are all blind to some extent, some more than others. Why is there death,etc.? The free choice was given, but a warning was given with it. We ignored that warning, so now there's death, and catastrophe. "A loving God would not allow this." we hear that all the time. Do mice think cats are evil? Actually, I don't think a mouse can judge evil or good, but its instinct of fight or flight is a basic ingredient in the makeup of what a mouse is. We don't judge the cat or the mouse, unless they eat our food or leave a mess in the wrong place. It is only part of the machinery to us. If we looked at ourselves that way, perhaps our humility would return, and in that is the beginning of what the bible says is what the Creator calls life. Phew! sorry for the length.Shalom
------------------
If not us,who; and if not now,when?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-27-2002 8:26 AM Mr. Davies has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-27-2002 9:21 AM Kolyahu has not replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 45 (27967)
12-27-2002 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Kolyahu
12-27-2002 9:00 AM


Shalom Kolyahu!
Thanks for your post and no, it was not that long.
What I have been after is if God gave us freewill to do things and He seems reluctant to come down and tell us what to do directly, yet God has no problem just killing people directly, hardening their hearts to make them even more stubborn, or having His chosen children slaughter other not so favored children.
I appreciate your comments and it makes a great deal of sense to me, especially the "our ways are not God's ways and the reverse is true", part. But if that is true, then why worship God if we don't know what His ways are?
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Kolyahu, posted 12-27-2002 9:00 AM Kolyahu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-30-2002 5:42 PM Mr. Davies has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 45 (28136)
12-30-2002 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Mr. Davies
12-27-2002 9:21 AM


Why worship him if we do understand his ways? He would hardly be worthy of praise if his ways weren't abover ours.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-27-2002 9:21 AM Mr. Davies has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-30-2002 5:50 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 12 by John, posted 12-30-2002 10:05 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 45 (28137)
12-30-2002 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by funkmasterfreaky
12-30-2002 5:42 PM


quote:
Why worship him if we do understand his ways? He would hardly be worthy of praise if his ways weren't above ours.
Huh?
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-30-2002 5:42 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 45 (28152)
12-30-2002 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by funkmasterfreaky
12-30-2002 5:42 PM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Why worship him if we do understand his ways? He would hardly be worthy of praise if his ways weren't abover ours.

So.... God makes no sense, therefore we should worship him?
Hitting the egg-nog hard this holiday season?
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-30-2002 5:42 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-31-2002 8:08 AM John has not replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 45 (28183)
12-31-2002 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by John
12-30-2002 10:05 PM


quote:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Why worship him if we do understand his ways? He would hardly be worthy of praise if his ways weren't abover ours.
So.... God makes no sense, therefore we should worship him?
Hitting the egg-nog hard this holiday season?
If we're to worship things that make no sense then I'm going to worship my kids. They're preteens.
Then the VCR manual I have must be the new Holiest of books as it makes no sense either.
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by John, posted 12-30-2002 10:05 PM John has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-31-2002 2:05 PM Mr. Davies has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 45 (28204)
12-31-2002 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Mr. Davies
12-31-2002 8:08 AM


I didn't say God doesn't make sense, only that his ways are above our ways. If his ways were not above our ways then he would not be worthy of praise.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-31-2002 8:08 AM Mr. Davies has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by John, posted 01-03-2003 9:47 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied
 Message 17 by Mr. Davies, posted 01-03-2003 1:12 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
NeoPagan
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 45 (28219)
12-31-2002 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mr. Davies
12-26-2002 10:52 AM


You are absolutely correct in questioning any "Revelation" or "Holy Book" that attributes such atrocious "Human" characteristics to God and then tries to present them as something too "high" and "above" our capacity to understand. I believe God gives us a little credit for not being complete idiots. The fact is, the Bible, the Koran, the Talmud, (and every book claimed to be inspired by God), were written by men who "used" God to justify their own particular beliefs and prejudices. You can generally be assured that if something is so horrendous that it offends a human mind, it is probably not within the scope of God's day to day activities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-26-2002 10:52 AM Mr. Davies has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024