Mustard-seed faith

This is a thread I decided to start as a continuation of an off-topic discussion with jar and General Nazort in moral relativism.In the bible there is this entry. I asked the following GN replied I countered To this jar simply put. When asked to elaborate this is his response I responded thus I asked this in all sincerity and it is the topic title that will be the point of concentration.Why is there no one in all these believers who can do good works with only mustard seed faith yet is somehow unwilling to do so?It is my contention that faith is an illusion that we present to ourselves to shore up an already crumbling foundation in the face of real life saying that things are otherwise.Now it is puzzling in the extreme to me that people who profess to be filled with the spirit,who say that we are blind and that they are possesed of truth that cannot be denied are faced with a conundrum here.If it is undeniable then it is surely equal to the requirement of mustard seed faith that you require to perform great works.If there is a solution to this complexity I should like to hear it.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Sidelined, to the man in a tribe, living; who has never seen the civilised world - there is no traffic.Likewise - You "believe" no good works happen. It is your assumption that they don't, because you see suffering.I suppose your point about walking into a hospital is a good one. But since walking into a shop is problems for my shyness - I'd rather have a sneaky prayer about any illness you might have.Afterall, is it I who do the work of healing - or God?We do things yet you assume we don't. Yes - we fall short, I admitt this. But what is the purpose in trying to remove mountains?Good and great works have and do happen - I've seen some myself.Christ says "you will always have the poor to give to". IOW - If we were meant to heal ALL, and solve the "world" - why then did he say this?If your position is that faith without works are dead, then I guess I kinda understand where your coming from. But if it's not - then it's me you want dead - and I even suggest you're against me!!!!!This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 08-07-2004 12:48 PM

MTWDoesn't mean someone isn't out to get you!LOLWell you may be shy but there are literally millions of christians out there some of whom are "charasmatic" and I cannot fathom that not one of them does not have the capability to achieve the necessary faith to produce an end to suffering.Again it is simple ask and it shall be done.I am sorry but this is a huge shortfall in capacity which speaks volumes in defense of the proposition that it is all in one's mind like any other imaginary construction. Illusions can be comforting but they are ultimately empty of content.As a note of interest to those believers who have read but not yetcommented. If you have no doubt in God's existence then why do you not believe his son. You claim to be filled with spirit yet you do not act to end these worldwide problems you witness and grieve over. Instead you send money to alleviate the guilt of being so well off.
You have christs word that such is possible but do not act.You talk the talk.I challenge you to fulfill the words given to you by the one whom you claim saved you from hell.I cannot share in your self congratulatory patting of one another on the back as though now you have no duty to excercise those things you claim you are capable of . Again where are your morals and pity for the state of the world you continue to do nothing about?
Prove me wrong but more important prove yourselves right once and for all and then revel in your accomplishments in His name.Or I suppose you will continue to believe that I am tempting you?SIGH

sidelined,This is a really good question that you are asking, well thought-out and needing to be answered.The answer to this question lies in the context of this teaching of Jesus. It is crucially important to consider the context of ANY passage of scripture.As Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason (Stand to Reason) says, NEVER READ A BIBLE VERSE!This sounds really strange at first (don't read the Bible? what?)However, what Greg means is that you should never read only a Bible verse. You MUST consider at a MINIMUM the paragraph; you should usually consider the whole chapter or even the whole book.With this verse, a brief look at the rest of the passage makes the answer to sidelined's question clear. If anyone should have faith, it should have been the disciples, right? They already saw Jesus do all kinds of miracles. And yet Jesus rebuked them for not having enough faith!When the discipiples asked Jesus why they could not make the demon leave the boy, he said, "because you have so little faith." He went on to say that if they had faith even the miniscule size of a mustard seed, they would be able to do anything! Implicitly, Jesus was saying this: you guys dont even have the faith of a mustard seed! You guys have hardly any faith at all!Faith is more than just intellectual assent. The disciples had seen Jesus do miracles. They intellectually understood the power of faith. Put they still did not have enough. Somewhere, in the back of their minds, in their hearts, they didn't really fully believe they had the power to heal the demon-possesed boy. They had faith, but it was so tiny, so shriveled, that compared even to the little mustard seed it was almost nothing.We need God to help us develop our faith. We cannot generate even a mustard seed of faith on our own. We start with perhaps an atom of faith, and slowly God helps as grow that bigger and bigger. In most peoples lives, it does not grow to the size of a mustard seed. But in a few people's lives, it does. For examples, Moses parting the red sea - that is a feat that rivals moving a mountain. As a modern day example, consider George Mueller. Now THAT GUY had some faith! I don't think it was mustard seed sized yet, but it could still do incredible things. He ran an orphanage in England in the 1800s, and some days they would have literally nothing to eat. But he would just sit down with the orphans for breakfast and just start praying and thanking God for what he was going to provide. And then random people would start coming in bringing milk, bread, money - everything they needed. Check out some of the stories about him.But most people are not like Moses or George mueller. And this is why us Christians today cannot walk into a cancer ward and start healing people. We may think we believe, we may think we can do miracles, we may have devoted our entire life to the cause of Christ, but somwhere in the back of our minds we still have seed of doubt that keeps as from having the neccessary faith. I know this is true for me. I may believe that I can move a mountain, but really, in the back of my mind, I don't actually, fully, expect the mountain to move in the same way I would expect, say, a ball to move when I kick it. I just don't have enough faith."I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"

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If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

Oh yea, about tempting, no I don't think you are trying to tempt us. If we could heal people like that, we would. However, a caveat: even though Jesus could have healed everyone on the whole earth with his power and faith, he didn't. I think that is because suffering is a way of trying to get our attention. Just as pain is good when we touch something hot because it makes us let go of what is hurting us, suffering is letting us know something is wrong in our relationship with God, and God is trying to get our attention. Do you think this would be a good topic for another thread?

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If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

I fully agree and am saddened. Christians today (in America at least) have it so well off, they just forget about the purpose for their lives and just hide behind giving money. We are guilty of talking the talk but not walking the walk. That is what I am trying to change about myself.

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If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

After re-reading sidelined's comments, I think I was misunderstanding him...that he was stating things from a third perspective rather than a personal one. Therefore, please take my comments as a response to that third perspective, not to him, personally.sidelined writes:

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As a note of interest to those believers who have read but not yetcommented. If you have no doubt in God's existence then why do you not believe his son.

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What an anti-Semitic statement.Are we seriously saying that to all the Jews and Muslim in the world?Have we considered the possibility that god exists but not in the way we think? Are we seriously saying that a person cannot have complete faith in god and still be of the opinion that Jesus wasn't what he is claimed to be?

quote:

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You claim to be filled with spirit yet you do not act to end these worldwide problems you witness and grieve over.

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As a better author wrote:Surely you're not saying we have the resources to save the poor from their lot?
There will be poor always, pathetically struggling. Look at the good things you've got.It seems some have fallen into the circular argument again...faith requires god which requires faith.This message has been edited by Rrhain, 08-09-2004 01:33 AM

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

General Nazort Then you obviously do not believe in God.You come here and debate to defend a worldview you doubt exists.You will defend the bible with a gusto and argue the merits of its creed and you all the while do not mean the words that issue from your heart?This is not to put you guys on the spot but it is the trap that I percieve you are all caughtin. For some reason or other you have a hole in your heart that you try to fill with the words of comfort offered by the bible.Or in another part of the world it would be Buddhism or Islam. The point is that IMO it is illusion and I cannot bring that to your conscious attention because to admit this is to face a great change in your way of thinking and to abandon hope and comfort for the abyss.I have been there done that and it is the hardest of life's hard facts to face.It is not that you guys lack faith you are doubtless more capable than you have opportunity to achieve in a society that spends a great deal of effort and time playing host to illusions. The stumbling block is not yourselves but your adherence to myths of ancient times handed down as gospel.
Again my opinion and my explanations will not change your viewpoint but a time must come when you have to ask why that mustard seed cannot be achieved depite your busting your ass for it. The simplest explanation that answers all those questions is that the amount of faith does not matter because the thing you hold the faith for just is not there.Anyway This is my last post till next week so take care and we'll see you then

But this is totally your opinion. Why should we change when the bible already says that suffering will happen, and we "know" (to our own minds) that our prayers are answered. It's no delusion we have to face - those are the words of one with doubt, it's that simple!!You are asking us to "doubt" God - whom has answered our very prayers. You are asking us to "face reality" - but this "reality" is yours. I tried to explain that to a tribes man who has never seen traffic - there is no traffic.We know that you have changed, but I hope you can see that we don't doubt like you now do. It's fair enough if (in your mind) there is no God. BUT the bible itself says that famines will happen, and wars and rumours of wars, and that even the apostles would be put to death.SO! Is your reasoning really enough that we should doubt Sidelined?You suggest we're caught in a trap - but;1. It's your side who claim miracles don't happen at all.
2. The bible doesn't prophecize that all suffering will be wiped out.
3. We believe and confess that our prayers are answered and that post-hoc reasoning and confirmation bias are completely inadequate in describing the unique specifity when dealing with a request.
4. The FULL passage shows that EVEN THE disciples had a hard time finding faith.

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They intellectually understood the power of faith. Put they still did not have enough.

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Which begs the question "Does ANYBODY have enough faith, or is that level of faith possible?" For instance, I can claim that if you work out hard enough you will be able to dead lift 1 million kilograms. If you come back to me and claim "I have been working out 8 hours a day for 20 years and I still can't life 1 million kilograms" I can then claim "Well, you haven't worked out enough." It seems like a self-fulfilling argument in that people are not categorized by how much faith they have, but by their lack to perform miracles.

I have a far more simple test - I'm sure the bible says that the true believer can survive drinking poison.Therefore I will give my house to any christian who can drink two litres of draincleaner.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 08-09-2004 04:12 PM

You see Charles, such silly tests and trials are as disappointing in you as JimDSAs constant effort to attack the user instead of the issue.You do not test GOD. GOD is not a side-show or game. Any believer who took up such a challenge would NOT get the support from GOD.Religion is a belief system. If you do not believe, then fine. I would never try to convince you otherwise. But threads like this are on exactly the same level as those pushing the Proof of GOD or Exodus Revealed. In this particular instance, there is not much difference in behavior between you, whatever, JimDSA, WILLOWTREE or Buz.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

What the... where did I say that?I said we had A LITTLE BIT of faith in God, NOT ZERO faith in God. Well sure, everyone has a little bit of doubt. But we still believe in the Bible and God... if you had to be 100% sure to believe something, what could you believe? I agree with you when you talk about people having "a hole" in their heart that they try to fill up. Some fill it with Christianity, some with Buddhism, some with drugs, alcohol, sex, or money. But everyone has this hole that they try to fill with something. So the question is, what is the right thing to fill it with? Is Christianity true? Is Buddhism true? Do drugs, alcohol, sex, or money ultimately fill that hole? What is illusion? the hole in our hearts or Christianity? Then why did you do it? Do you still have the hole in your heart? Well actually I believe the probelm IS that I lack faith. Refer again to the passage where Jesus talks about this. Even the disciples lacked it. If they didn't have enough, why should I? Because we are human. We are simply unable to get that much faith to matter how hard we work.Loudmouth gave a perfect example: No matter how hard we work, we can't get enough faith, because we are just humans. We do not have super-duper faith, we don't have super-duper strength to lift one million kilograms. God has to help us get more of it. In Loudmouth's example, God would have to help the person to lift 1 million kilograms, just as God has to help us get even a mustard seed of faith. However, even the mustard seed is usually not achieved in this life, even with God's help. Do you have some way to measure faith? I don't. So the only way to tell how much faith someone has is by the miracles they perform. Ahh, but the simplest answer is not always the right one. And what about George Mueller?

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If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

My apologies Jar - I tend to take things around faith in the most literal sense (having no beliefs of my own).I'll retire from this thread and let you people to carry on with this conversation.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 08-09-2004 08:53 PM