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Author Topic:   Picayune Gods & Those Who Market Them
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1 of 153 (905686)
02-02-2023 10:39 AM


(I found a table over here in the back of the Coffee House where the old men hang out.)
I invite everyone here to first off welcome jar back to the forum and have a round of coffee
(with Irish Whiskey?) to celebrate his return. I didnt really miss jar in the framework of debates (as he never let mine get off the ground) but I missed him as a member of the forum and am glad to see that he is healthy and hopefully well-rested.
ringo and I go round and round and I have yet to win one of those arguments either.
*Looks around table*
I will say that ALL of you are unique in your debating styles and we all occasionally go off the rails and engage in personal attacks. I propose that in this topic, we stick to the arguments and be respectful of each other as much as possible. Forum Guidelines
Recently, I noticed how more than a few topics here at the forum were skidding off the rails and becoming as free for all as a brawl at an NHL Hockey game!
The impetus for starting this session was to get everyone at the same table (believers and non believers, Conservatives and Liberals alike) and hash it out without derailingother topics.
Phat, addressing Percy writes:
Do you believe in open borders? WWJD?
Percy writes:
WWJD? You have to ask? Render unto Caesar. Borders would mean nothing to Jesus. We are all God's children. Border's are Godless and artificial constructions of men.
* * *
Theo writes:
CS Lewis was a bit of a hack. Not sure why people think that his children's stories and apologetics are so great.
CS Lewis's literary legacy: 'dodgy and unpleasant' or 'exceptionally good'? | CS Lewis | The Guardian
CS Lewis was imperfect, but in a wold of free speech, he at least presented thoughtful arguments.
Tangle writes:
But of course now I know it to be nonsense, just like you do. Only Catholics believe it to be the actual body of Christ. Crazy people.
Dredge writes:
John 6:51--"I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”  So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;  he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day
."
John 6:51-54
"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.”  And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you;  for this is my blood of the[e] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."
Matt 26:26-28
So-called Christians who don't believe in the Real Presence aren't true Christians. Their watered-down version of Christianity is unbiblical, amateurish, erroneous and fake.
Personally, I take issue with your idea that Catholics are the only true church. I DO consider them Christians, however.
jar writes:
Message 68Jesus is not a male nor is the Holy Spirit.
Dont go telling us that Jesus was non-binary! You have at least admitted that while on earth He was fully human, IIRC.
jar writes:
How can there be any justification for judging anyone on what they believe?

I agree that what we believe influences what we do, and I believe that is one of the worst things about Christianity as marketed in the US. The "Saved" and "Forgiven" and "Christ died to pay for my sins" marketing spiels are vile and evil.
Were you in the marketing business, what type of "God" would *you* market, jar?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 02-02-2023 11:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 3 by nwr, posted 02-02-2023 11:06 AM Phat has replied
 Message 8 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2023 12:50 PM Phat has replied
 Message 17 by jar, posted 02-03-2023 7:21 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2 of 153 (905691)
02-02-2023 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
02-02-2023 10:39 AM


Welcome Back Jar
jar, I know that you are not back to go off on the numerous PRATTS that the forum has accumulated in your absense, but I just want you to know that I made this topic for anyone who feels a need to correct the erroneous logic of one of their fellow members and you can hijack this thread all you want!
Taq writes:
We atheists will point out that our universe is indistinguishable from one where there is no God.
Dredge writes:
What makes you qualified to know what a godless universe looks like?
Please explain how a godless universe differs from a universe that includes God.
If there was an all powerful God who claimed to love us then this is not the universe we would expect to see. That's the point.
The point is, you atheists ignore what the Bible says about Original Sin destroying the world that the first humans (Adam and Eve) experienced.
You atheists also ignore the promise God makes in the Bible to provide a Paradise that his children will enjoy forever.
Atheists like you simply don't want God to exist, so why bother inventing fake excuses to reject belief in him?
I might ask Dredge if he considers believers as superior to non believers in any way and also pose the question to atheists. Do you (atheists) feel that you are smarter and more in touch with reality then are believers?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 02-02-2023 10:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Taq, posted 02-02-2023 11:33 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 3 of 153 (905692)
02-02-2023 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
02-02-2023 10:39 AM


Jesus red and Jesus blue
Were you in the marketing business, what type of "God" would *you* market, jar?
I noticed a recent blog post:
The Two Christianities and Their Problems.
It discusses "Jesus red and Jesus blue". I see jar and ringo as Jesus blue people, while Phat and Trump are Jesus red people. I'll put myself in the Jesus blue group.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 02-02-2023 10:39 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 02-02-2023 11:18 AM nwr has replied
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 09-01-2023 8:24 AM nwr has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 4 of 153 (905694)
02-02-2023 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by nwr
02-02-2023 11:06 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Me and Trump??!! Why am I in that company?? Lest I react too much, allow me to read your article...
The Two Christianities and Their Problems:
All the religions are totalitarian and all religions are authoritarian, although this latter quality is enhanced in theistic religions, since of course their founding premise is that there is a super being that literally authored the universe in the first instance and authored the religion in the next, presumably to correct something that went wrong in the initial offering; and of course the super being (because he is super) can’t possibly be held accountable for anything that goes wrong in his creation. So, when something does go wrong it must be the fault of the humans who are assigned caretakers of at least their part in creation. However in order to hold the humans accountable this super being cannot simply snuff them out and start anew – that would essentially admit that the creation of the humans was itself a mistake on the part of the super being, and a super being cannot make mistakes. So the humans have to be given a good lashing and made to feel guilty; but to remind them of the super being’s power, his majesty, how good he is in having created them and not snuffing them out, the unquestionable author also generates the fundamental principles of his creation’s religion. These fundamental principles structure the totalitarian control over their lives.
Im still reading this article! Great conversation starter. What worries me about Jesus Blue believers is that they even go so far as to throw Jesus away and hijack the message for the people...without need of a leader. A Headless Beast, as it were!

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by nwr, posted 02-02-2023 11:06 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 02-02-2023 11:30 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 02-02-2023 12:04 PM Phat has replied
 Message 11 by jar, posted 02-02-2023 4:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 5 of 153 (905697)
02-02-2023 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
02-02-2023 11:18 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
What worries me about Jesus Blue believers is that they even go so far as to throw Jesus away and hijack the message for the people...without need of a leader.
No, they don't. But perhaps they throw away Jesus red.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 02-02-2023 11:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10191
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(3)
Message 6 of 153 (905699)
02-02-2023 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
02-02-2023 11:06 AM


Re: Welcome Back Jar
Phat writes:
Do you (atheists) feel that you are smarter and more in touch with reality then are believers?
I would never use a broad brush to paint these groups. I would need to judge these comparisons on a person by person basis.
I have interacted with believers who can intelligently discuss topics like Epicurus' Trilemma or the Problem of Suffering. They are quite smart people. I don't think they are any less in touch with reality than I am. They will even admit that their belief is based on personal experience and faith instead of the crap poor apologetics that we sometimes see. I have come across many believers that I have great respect for. None of us are infallible, including myself, so I certainly don't fault people for being human.
What I look for is honesty. What frustrates us is when people throw out honesty in the name of protecting an ideology or belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 02-02-2023 11:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 522 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 7 of 153 (905708)
02-02-2023 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
02-02-2023 11:18 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat writes:
Me and Trump??!! Why am I in that company??
I keep asking you why you are NOT in that company - and you never answer.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 02-02-2023 11:18 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 02-02-2023 4:05 PM ringo has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9346
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 8 of 153 (905719)
02-02-2023 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
02-02-2023 10:39 AM


How about instead of starting new topics you address the crazy shit you have been called out on on all the other bullshit topics you started?
Just an idea.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 02-02-2023 10:39 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 02-02-2023 2:10 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 9 of 153 (905724)
02-02-2023 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Theodoric
02-02-2023 12:50 PM


Called Out and Clueless
Its so numerous I would never find it all without some effort

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2023 12:50 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 10 of 153 (905733)
02-02-2023 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
02-02-2023 12:04 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
First of all, we have to come to a consensus about what Trump represents.
I've never voted for the guy. I DO know that he clams to want to control open borders, he wanted to help the small businessman rather than taxing the crap out of them which disincentivizes them from even wanting to run small businesses. He built a stronger military which keeps anyone from wanting to confront the United States. Oh, and he gave massive tax breaks to the wealthy, which was an unpopular move, though trickle down economics is akin to priming the pump. As I have said before, one needs a return on investment.
The whole rising tides argument kills incentive and small business.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 02-02-2023 12:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by nwr, posted 02-02-2023 4:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 14 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2023 5:00 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 15 by Taq, posted 02-02-2023 6:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 02-03-2023 10:50 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 11 of 153 (905734)
02-02-2023 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
02-02-2023 11:18 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
So you still simply like to make shit up and pretend that you are describing others.
You still don't seem able to even read and understand what you write.
Ŝajnas, ke iuj homoj neniam povas aŭ rifuzos pensi.
Have I ever mentioned that Christians should follow what Jesus taught?

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 02-02-2023 11:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.8


(3)
Message 12 of 153 (905735)
02-02-2023 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
02-02-2023 4:05 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
I DO know that he clams to want to control open borders,
That was a con. The borders are not open, and Trump wasn't particularly successful at controlling the borders.
he wanted to help the small businessman rather than taxing the crap out of them which disincentivizes them from even wanting to run small businesses.
If Trump wanted to help small business, he would have paid his own bills instead of stiffing them. If Trump wanted to help small business, he wouldn't have hired immigrants for his own businesses.
Oh, and he gave massive tax breaks to the wealthy,
And you are probably going to be paying for that for the rest of your life.
though trickle down economics is akin to priming the pump.
It usually isn't. Rather, it is a way of giving money to the rich under the false pretense of priming the pump.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 02-02-2023 4:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2023 4:56 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9346
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 13 of 153 (905736)
02-02-2023 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by nwr
02-02-2023 4:54 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Only ignorant morons still fall for the trickle-down crap.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by nwr, posted 02-02-2023 4:54 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9346
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(3)
Message 14 of 153 (905737)
02-02-2023 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
02-02-2023 4:05 PM


It burns
Can you actually read? Can you find actual respected economists, not right-wing shysters that support trickle-down?
Trickle-Down Economics: Theory, Effect, Results
The Fallacy and Persistence of “Trickle-Down Economics” - Brown Political Review.
Why are we still pretending 'trickle-down' economics work? | Morris Pearl | The Guardian
Huge 20-Year Study Shows Trickle-Down Is a Myth, Inequality Rampant
Why Trickle-Down Economics Doesn't Work - Rantt Media

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 02-02-2023 4:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10191
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 15 of 153 (905741)
02-02-2023 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
02-02-2023 4:05 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat writes:
I DO know that he clams to want to control open borders,
They are controlled.
he wanted to help the small businessman rather than taxing the crap out of them which disincentivizes them from even wanting to run small businesses.
Republicans had control of both the White House and Congress, and they never did that. Go figure.
He built a stronger military which keeps anyone from wanting to confront the United States.
The strength of the military never changed during his term.
Oh, and he gave massive tax breaks to the wealthy, which was an unpopular move, though trickle down economics is akin to priming the pump.
Put more food on the tables of the rich so there can be a few more crumbs that fall down for the rest of us??? Seriously??? All they did was prime the pump that pushed wealth up to the rich.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 02-02-2023 4:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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