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Author Topic:   Scientific Utility and Explanation Power of ID
DampeS8N
Junior Member (Idle past 3633 days)
Posts: 1
From: Columbia
Joined: 11-25-2014


Message 1 of 6 (742928)
11-25-2014 2:13 PM


Evolution by Natural Selection offers predictive and explanatory power. In order for an idea to be considered scientific, and especially to be a theory, it must do this. From what I understand, ID does not do this.
Can someone explain to me what predictions and explanations ID offers?
For example, how does ID account for the barrier between supposed Macro and Micro evolution? If things change, and we know they change, what mechanism prevents those changes from resulting in new "kinds" over time? There must be some mechanism preventing these changes from stacking up to the point where an Ape becomes a Man.
What can I learn about the future from ID? Will it help me create new drugs because I understand the above limitation? Can I plan how to cycle antibiotics around the imposed limitations of different kinds of bacteria?
Where are the lines between kinds? At what objective boundary can we place the barrier between kinds?
These seem like fundamental questions for ID to answer if it makes the assertion that life can change as we observe but that it can't change on the macro scale. After all, changes on the small scale piling up to create larger scale changes would be the base assumption given that life changes at all.
Can someone more versed in ID theory speak to my points?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 11-25-2014 4:40 PM DampeS8N has not replied
 Message 4 by herebedragons, posted 11-25-2014 10:02 PM DampeS8N has not replied
 Message 5 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2015 11:35 PM DampeS8N has not replied
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 01-12-2015 11:33 AM DampeS8N has not replied

  
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Message 2 of 6 (742930)
11-25-2014 2:26 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Scientific Utility and Explanation Power of ID thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1627 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 3 of 6 (742948)
11-25-2014 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DampeS8N
11-25-2014 2:13 PM


welcome
Hi DampeS8N and welcome to the fray
Can someone explain to me what predictions and explanations ID offers?
As far as I know there are no testable predictions that offer an alternative to evolution.
Basically they say that IF we don't know how some process evolved that THEN we need to consider ID ... rather faulty logic.
For example, how does ID account for the barrier between supposed Macro and Micro evolution? If things change, and we know they change, what mechanism prevents those changes from resulting in new "kinds" over time? There must be some mechanism preventing these changes from stacking up to the point where an Ape becomes a Man.
Which is similar to saying that after "X" throws of a coin that it can no longer turn up heads.
What can I learn about the future from ID? Will it help me create new drugs because I understand the above limitation? Can I plan how to cycle antibiotics around the imposed limitations of different kinds of bacteria?
Where are the lines between kinds? At what objective boundary can we place the barrier between kinds?
These seem like fundamental questions for ID to answer if it makes the assertion that life can change as we observe but that it can't change on the macro scale. After all, changes on the small scale piling up to create larger scale changes would be the base assumption given that life changes at all.
Can someone more versed in ID theory speak to my points?
Well all I can offer is my take on the use and abuse of ID: Is ID properly pursued?
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DampeS8N, posted 11-25-2014 2:13 PM DampeS8N has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 1080 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 4 of 6 (742967)
11-25-2014 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DampeS8N
11-25-2014 2:13 PM


Welcome
For example, how does ID account for the barrier between supposed Macro and Micro evolution?
ID doesn't necessarily assume such a barrier. For instance, an intelligent being could have designed and built the first protocell and planted it here on earth and the rest of life unfolded just as evolutionary theory suggests it did.
However, the big problem is that there is virtually no work being done to support Intelligent Design in the positive. Instead, it basically takes its strategy from creationism and tries to disprove evolution. What are the flagships of the ID movement? Irreducible complexity. The eye could not have evolved from simpler functional units, so therefore ... ID. etc, etc, you know the drill.
So the question becomes this, what criteria could we establish that could only be true of an intelligently designed universe? What could we know about the designer (assuming that this is indeed not a religious exercise that prescribes to know about a particular deity or creator) that we could confidently assert would be true about our universe that would be true if and only if it were designed by this unknown force?
I would say that on the surface ID has some appeal, but there is really no substance to it. It may as well be creationism, just with open ended parameters.
Can someone explain to me what predictions and explanations ID offers?
I think to some it offers a seemingly legitimate compromise between their religious belief and the overwhelming evidence produced by science. To me though, when it is presented as some unknown designer, it fails to provide any religious benefit and when it presents the science in such a way as to say "no point looking further than this because it was designed" it fails to provide any scientific benefit. So it just doesn't seem to provide any benefit.
Can someone more versed in ID theory speak to my points?
Again, ID doesn't necessarily have the barriers you indicate, but in general, it doesn't make useful predictions or provide useful explanations.
However, there was a member here who did a really good job of presenting some testable hypotheses related to intelligent design. You could read through them if you would like.
Revisiting the Type III secretion system
Towards a Hypothesis of Molecular Design
Nature's Engines and Engineering
Deep Homology and Front-loading
HBD

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"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DampeS8N, posted 11-25-2014 2:13 PM DampeS8N has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 6 (747067)
01-11-2015 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DampeS8N
11-25-2014 2:13 PM


For example, how does ID account for the barrier between supposed Macro and Micro evolution? If things change, and we know they change, what mechanism prevents those changes from resulting in new "kinds" over time? There must be some mechanism preventing these changes from stacking up to the point where an Ape becomes a Man.
ID does not propose any such barrier. Why do you insist that such a barrier must exist? Even if evolutionary theory is completely wrong, why must it be wrong in exactly this way?
These seem like fundamental questions for ID to answer if it makes the assertion that life can change as we observe but that it can't change on the macro scale.
Does ID make such an assertion?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DampeS8N, posted 11-25-2014 2:13 PM DampeS8N has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 634 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 6 of 6 (747092)
01-12-2015 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DampeS8N
11-25-2014 2:13 PM


DampeS8N writes:
These seem like fundamental questions for ID to answer....
The fundamental questions for ID to answer are not the ones science would ask. They're the ones opponents of science would ask.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DampeS8N, posted 11-25-2014 2:13 PM DampeS8N has not replied

  
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