Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9162 total)
9 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,227 Year: 3,484/9,624 Month: 355/974 Week: 244/130 Day: 38/43 Hour: 0/6


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Mind from Matter
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 112 (166339)
12-08-2004 6:44 PM


I do not understand how mind can evolve from matter, how mentality can emerge from physicality. To me this is more problematic than life from non-life, since life from non-life does not involve anything except different forms of physicality.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by 1.61803, posted 12-09-2004 4:40 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 4 by Ben!, posted 12-09-2004 5:53 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 6 by Loudmouth, posted 12-09-2004 7:41 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2004 9:29 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 49 by Dr Jack, posted 12-20-2004 5:40 AM robinrohan has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 112 (166604)
12-09-2004 4:32 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1519 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 3 of 112 (166606)
12-09-2004 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
12-08-2004 6:44 PM


Energy is the currency of all matter in the universe.
The mind is a function of the brain. Without a functional brain there is no mind. So the developement of the brain from matter gave rise to conciousness. IMO.

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 12-08-2004 6:44 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1413 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 4 of 112 (166643)
12-09-2004 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
12-08-2004 6:44 PM


RR,
If you're really interested in investigating this matter, I would HIGHLY suggest you do the following things:
1. define what is mind
2. describe some evidence or assumptions for where your definition of mind comes from.
If you do these two things, then I think we can make some headway on your question together.
Thanks!
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 12-08-2004 6:44 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by robinrohan, posted 12-09-2004 6:22 PM Ben! has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 112 (166651)
12-09-2004 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Ben!
12-09-2004 5:53 PM


Okay.
Definition of mind: the element or complex of elements in an individual that feels, percevies, thinks, wills, and imagines.
Where my definition of mind comes from: out of the dictionary.
Will that do?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Ben!, posted 12-09-2004 5:53 PM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Ben!, posted 12-09-2004 11:29 PM robinrohan has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 112 (166684)
12-09-2004 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
12-08-2004 6:44 PM


quote:
I do not understand how mind can evolve from matter, how mentality can emerge from physicality. To me this is more problematic than life from non-life, since life from non-life does not involve anything except different forms of physicality.
I think you are putting the cart before the horse. If it is hard for me to understand how the length of the sides of a triangle can be used to calculate the ratios of the angles, is this problematiic for trigonometry? OR, is it my problem? Reality does not conform to what YOU or I think is possible or impossible. Reality is reality and scientific theories should reflect that reality.
I know this is going to sound obvious, but when the brain is damaged the mind is damaged. If the mind were separate from the physical this would not be possible. The mind is the product of the brain, a collection of neurons sending chemical and electrical signals to one another. The result is our thoughts, memories, bodily functions, etc. Some may think this demeans the importance of the mind, but I don't. Besides, why should we deny reality just because it is something we don't like?
This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 12-09-2004 07:43 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 12-08-2004 6:44 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by robinrohan, posted 12-09-2004 8:25 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 112 (166705)
12-09-2004 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Loudmouth
12-09-2004 7:41 PM


Who is "denying reality"? All I said was that I didn't understand it. To me it's a great mystery.
We are travelling along the evolutionary trail and somewhere along the line "consciousness" occurs. The first question we can ask is whether consciousness is a threshold or something gradual. A professor I had once was convinced that animals were not conscious, which made them functionally blind (and deaf, etc.). Their eyes worked just fine, of course, but they were blind in the sense that that they perceived nothing -- they were machines, basically. This professor must have been persuaded that consciousness was a threshold and had no evolutionary history beyond one species, since humans were the only ones who had it.
Why would it be a threshold? I suppose the idea is that you are either conscious or you are not, and if you are conscious you are fully conscious in the human sense of the word (self-consciously aware). Proto-humans were just as fully conscious as we are (presumably). They thought about the past and the future, they had images in this minds, they reasoned, and so forth.
But how could this happen? How does a brain, a physical object, produce a mind, a mental "object"?
The other alternative (mind producing matter) is just as incredible, by the way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Loudmouth, posted 12-09-2004 7:41 PM Loudmouth has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2004 9:31 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 11 by NosyNed, posted 12-09-2004 9:46 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
southerngurl
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 112 (166724)
12-09-2004 9:00 PM


The problem is that a mind is not just matter and electricity, computers are that. Inside the mind is a person, an identity. An individual who uses the mind for thoughts and emotions. A consciousness could theoretically be placed in anything. If somehow "I" - my person, not my body nor brain, were to be implanted inside a computer, I would be me. I would be controling something different, and useing something different to process my thoughts.
It starts to get into a realm we can't understand.
Someone above said that if the brain is damaged, the mind is damaged. If I was inside a computer, and it was damaged, my ability to use the computer to process my thoughts would be hindered, just as in the mind.
This message has been edited by southerngurl, 12-09-2004 09:03 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by 1.61803, posted 12-09-2004 9:55 PM southerngurl has not replied
 Message 13 by lfen, posted 12-09-2004 11:03 PM southerngurl has not replied
 Message 15 by sidelined, posted 12-10-2004 12:06 AM southerngurl has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1482 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 9 of 112 (166741)
12-09-2004 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
12-08-2004 6:44 PM


I do not understand how mind can evolve from matter, how mentality can emerge from physicality.
In order for us to answer that, you have to tell us what "mind" is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 12-08-2004 6:44 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1482 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 112 (166742)
12-09-2004 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by robinrohan
12-09-2004 8:25 PM


A professor I had once was convinced that animals were not conscious, which made them functionally blind (and deaf, etc.). Their eyes worked just fine, of course, but they were blind in the sense that that they perceived nothing -- they were machines, basically.
That's one way to look at it, but how would you go about proving that your professor wasn't a machine, too?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by robinrohan, posted 12-09-2004 8:25 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9000
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 11 of 112 (166748)
12-09-2004 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by robinrohan
12-09-2004 8:25 PM


Grey (pun intended) areas
We are travelling along the evolutionary trail and somewhere along the line "consciousness" occurs.
My guess would be that this isn't the case. There are very, very fine gradiations in the degree of conscieousness. It doesn't just suddenly turn on.
I was astonished to learn that there is reason to think that hissing cockroachs can tell individual humans apart. Are they "conscious". Perhaps just a little tiny bit.
Is a chimp "conscious"? I don't know one personally (other than my 15 year old) but it seems to me that they are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by robinrohan, posted 12-09-2004 8:25 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1519 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 12 of 112 (166753)
12-09-2004 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by southerngurl
12-09-2004 9:00 PM


Do you mind????
southerngurl writes:
Inside the mind is a person a identity
I believe as do a great many, to include Hindus; that the "person" or SELF is an illusion of the mind. The thing that is THINKING and processing these words is an illusion. If you and I were a 100 miles in the Earth in a lead room with no openings and both simutaneously took arsinic and died at the same time. What would happen to your SELF and mine? What would separate your SELF from mine? If you are pronounced brain dead from a head injury, where is the "person" that existed prior to the injury? And when the body ceases to function,and dies what happens to the "mind" or Self or "soul"? Likewise if data from your brain is altered and false memories implanted, does this "Person" you speak of incorporate these forigen memories as your own? The Person you speak of is no more than the sum collection of all your past memories and experiences. The sum total of your mind. No brian, no mind, no mind, no person. Hence there is no such thing as a Person or Self. IMO

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by southerngurl, posted 12-09-2004 9:00 PM southerngurl has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4692 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 13 of 112 (166786)
12-09-2004 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by southerngurl
12-09-2004 9:00 PM


What is a person inside of a mind?
Inside the mind is a person, an identity
What is this person? What is an identity? Important questions.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by southerngurl, posted 12-09-2004 9:00 PM southerngurl has not replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1413 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 14 of 112 (166790)
12-09-2004 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by robinrohan
12-09-2004 6:22 PM


RR,
That does help... but a little more will help as well.
I'm interested to know more about 'will' and 'perceive'. I'm sorry if this doesn't seem useful to you, but really, it helps a lot.
Thanks!
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by robinrohan, posted 12-09-2004 6:22 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by robinrohan, posted 12-10-2004 1:21 AM Ben! has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5923 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 15 of 112 (166802)
12-10-2004 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by southerngurl
12-09-2004 9:00 PM


southerngurl
The problem is that a mind is not just matter and electricity, computers are that. Inside the mind is a person, an identity. An individual who uses the mind for thoughts and emotions. A consciousness could theoretically be placed in anything.
I would like to ask you if you can explain what you mean by a person or identity. What is it that you experience that makes you think so?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by southerngurl, posted 12-09-2004 9:00 PM southerngurl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by southerngurl, posted 12-10-2004 7:45 PM sidelined has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024