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Author
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Topic: Adam & Eve to be blamed, or god!
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Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member
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Message 1 of 117 (126554)
07-22-2004 10:25 AM
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Alright, so Adam & Eve were cursed by god and we (their children) are therefore also punished by god. (Although I believe the bible states that you shouldn't suffer for your parents mistakes, this one probably does count). This situation could have been easily remedied in my opinion, but eveybody present at that time didn't think of it. *Adam and Eve should have remained virgins. I think Lilith had no children with Adam, so their chastity would have made sure that millions would not have been send to hell. *God himself could have admitted his mistake and try again. It was his first attempt, nobody immediately succeeds. We would have forgiven him for the slaughter of 2 sinners. They would have deserved what they got. All three are to be blamed in my opinion. Lucy This message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-22-2004 09:25 AM
Bible Search Results "Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses. Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
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AdminNosy
Administrator Posts: 4755 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: 11-11-2003
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Message 2 of 117 (126572)
07-22-2004 11:18 AM
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Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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portmaster1000
Inactive Member
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Naive People and Blame
I've always wondered about the blame placed on Adam and Eve. If they were created without knowledge of good and evil then it seems that they don't have the ability for any kind of judgement. We have God giving them one simple commandment:
Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Adam and Eve can obviously understand cause and effect since Eve expresses concern about dying when the serpent first questions her. The serpent responds by saying:
Ye shall not surely die This is exactly opposite of what God has told them. From a certain perspective both the serpent and God are telling the truth. It all depends on how you view the word "surely." When God gives the command he isn't saying they will immediately die but the serpent is playing off Eve's assumption that surely meant immediately. The serpent has used Eve's false assumption of the meaning of surely against her. Eve is now presented with a quandry. How does she evaluate these two conflicting statements? Can we assume that God has instructed Adam and Eve to obey his every command? Without giving them judgement of their own, I can only come to this conclusion. What is God's policy about the statements made by other creatures? Has he given Adam and Eve a "My Word is Law" command? I know to us it seems silly of Eve to take a mere serpent's word over God's but does she have the ability to make that call? In other words, is she completely naive? thanx PM1K
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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6319 days) Posts: 1567 Joined: 06-10-2004
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Re: Naive People and Blame
I know to us it seems silly of Eve to take a mere serpent's word over God's but does she have the ability to make that call? If Eve was truly innocent and naive, she was not equipped to make that judgement, any more than a two-year-old might be... But your comments regarding the serpent bring up another point: If God is omnipotent, Satan (the serpent) can only commit acts permitted by God. Therefore God permitted Satan to tempt Eve in a way that God knew would result in the fall of mankind (He being omniscient). If we believe God was omniscient, He would further realize the effects of Eve's "decision", that is the death, and destruction that He would bring down on humanity repeated times as punishment for their failings. God set up Eve, and humanity, to fail.
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fnord
Inactive Member
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God has a tendency to punish the wrong one. Remember that serpent that tempted Eve? Well, it wasn't a real snake. Snakes really are a nice sort of animal, and besides, they don't talk. No, it was Satan in disguise. You'd think God would punish the wrongdo-er, but no, He made the messenger and its offspring suffer, by henceforth letting it "go upon thy belly" (always makes me wonder how snakes moved prior to that punishment) and having him eat dust (but where I live snakes still eat frogs and mice). Oh ja, welkom trouwens.
If there is one thing computers will never be able to do, it is to descend from apes -- Piet Grijs
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member
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Or, you can look at it as a moral play. Man is sinful because he knows the difference between right and wrong but is unable to always pick the right choice. The moral play shown in the Garden of Eden epic is teaching the philosophy behind the difference between Man and God. Even when the literalness of Genesis is taken away there are still deep truths to the stories presented in Genesis.
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jar
Member (Idle past 136 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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First, most of the Christian Churches do not stress the concept of original sin. But the moral of the story of the Garden of Eden was and is still very worthwhile. It is a basic statement that says, "When you oppose Gods, instructions, you will suffer." While Leviticus is big on vesting the sins of the father on the child, that is not true of most of the Bible. For example:
2 Kings 14:6
Yet he did not put the sons of the assassins to death, in accordance with what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses where the LORD commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins." That is echoed in Chronicles:
2 Chronicles 25:4
Yet he did not put their sons to death, but acted in accordance with what is written in the Law, in the Book of Moses, where the LORD commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins." It's interesting that in the Koran account of the Adam and Eve story, the man and the woman are equal partners and equally to blame.
O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden and enjoy (its good things) as you [both] wish: but approach not this tree or you [both] run into harm and transgression. Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said "Your Lord only forbade you this tree lest you [both] should become angels or such beings as live for ever." And he swore to them both that he was their sincere adviser. So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree their shame became manifest to them and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?" They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: if you forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your mercy we shall certainly be lost." (Allah) said: "Get you [both] down with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling place and your means of livelihood for a time." He said: "Therein shall you [both] live and therein shall you [both] die; and from it shall you [both] be taken out (at last)." O you children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you but the raiment of righteousness that is the best. Such are among the signs of Allah that they may receive admonition! O you children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you in the same manner as he got your parents out of the garden stripping them of their raiment to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where you cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith. (Qur'an 7:19 27)
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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portmaster1000
Inactive Member
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Re: Naive People and Blame
I've went back over the 2nd and 3rd chapters in Genesis and tried to see if naive was the wrong word to describe Adam and Eve. I had a thought that perhaps the tree was just symbolic and was a test of sorts for Adam and Eve who already possessed an innate judgement of good and evil. I, however, cannot find supporting evidence for that point of view. In fact, I seem to find more evidence of naivety.
quote:
Gen 3:6 - 7 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
The phrase "Eyes of them both were opened" definitely represents some kind of change. Today this phrase would mean a transition out of a state of naivety.
pink sasquatch writes: God set up Eve, and humanity, to fail. Did God indeed want Eve and Adam to fail? Did he want them to choose (use free will) not to be naive anymore? Of course, one could make an argument that they really didn't understand what they were choosing. thanx PM1K
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 11 by 1.61803, posted 07-22-2004 11:55 PM | | portmaster1000 has replied |
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3344 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: 11-21-2003
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Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses. The result of the Fall. Everything is cursed with death - the penalty of sin. The earth is also cursed, hence, natural disasters. N.T. declares that Jesus is the Second Adam, and that IN Him all curses are null and void.
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Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member
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well: The International Encyclopedia says: "Mithras seems to have owed his prominence to the belief that he was the source of life, and could also redeem the souls of the dead into the better world.... The ceremonies included a sort of baptism to remove sins, anointing, and a sacred meal of bread and water, while a consecrated wine, believed to possess wonderful power, played a prominent part." And this account is older than the new testament. The similarities between the older Mithras and Jesus do not stop here. Lucy
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1800 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: 02-19-2004
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Re: Naive People and Blame
I personally believe that the story of Adam and Eve is a description of humans becoming concious of they're own existance. Of all the animals of the planet humans seem to be the only ones with this concept of good and evil. A lion kills for food and defense or for what ever reason..good or evil does not enter into it. Adam and Eve innocent and naive of the knowlege of good and evil are condemned after eating from the tree by that name. Condemned because to have knowlege or to make the distinction of good or evil comes at a price. As Jean Paul Sarte said.."we are condemned to be free." Just my 2 cents of an opinion. Portmaster1000 that is one loud ass avatar. 
"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche
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portmaster1000
Inactive Member
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Message 12 of 117 (126938)
07-23-2004 9:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 11 by 1.61803
07-22-2004 11:55 PM
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Ok, I get the message
quote:
one loud ass avatar
Ok, avatar toned down before anyone actually went blind (or insane)  staring at it. PM1K
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by 1.61803, posted 07-22-2004 11:55 PM | | 1.61803 has not replied |
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Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member
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Re: Ok, I get the message
Shame. I liked your avatar. Lucy
Bible Search Results "Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses. Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
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portmaster1000
Inactive Member
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Message 14 of 117 (126944)
07-23-2004 9:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 11 by 1.61803
07-22-2004 11:55 PM
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Re: Naive People and Blame
The Golden Ratio writes: Condemned because to have knowlege or to make the distinction of good or evil comes at a price. The price being the responsibility for one's actions and having to face the consequences of that action? PM1K
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by 1.61803, posted 07-22-2004 11:55 PM | | 1.61803 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by 1.61803, posted 07-23-2004 11:11 AM | | portmaster1000 has not replied |
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1800 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: 02-19-2004
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Re: Naive People and Blame
Yes I do believe that is part of it. It is difficult to admit that along with humans potential to do great good, we also have just as much potential to do great evil. It is far easier to blame a outside force for this evil than to admit it is a natural part of being. It is easier to steal than to earn. It is easier to hate than to forgive. It is easier to be gluttoness than to have restraint. I am beginning to believe that all the wisdom in the bible is there because our ancestors knew the temptation of the easier path would always sweep away those who did not have the moral fortitude to choose good over evil. JMHO.
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