Universal Health Care

In my opinion Universal Health care is the most important issue facing the US today. I want to find out why so many oppose it.First let's define what I am talking about. Universal healthcare DOES NOT mean govt. run health care. It certainly could mean that, or it could mean that your tax dollars would provide you with a certain level of insurance covereage and you could choose a basic plan from a private insurer that qualified. I'm sure there are many other possibilities. The end result of any system would be that every American would receive basic health covereage as part of their tax payments. This has been tried before in history by both parties (Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton).Today over 50% of new bankruptcies are caused by unexpected medical costs. 10s of thousands of people die every year because they can not afford medical coverage. We spend over 500 billion dolalrs on defense a year, yet we think it's ok to let people die because they are poor.As I see it universal health care has many benefits:- Lower health care costs for all (this is a no brainer, one of the main reasons health insurance is expensive is emergency care for the uninsured)
- A healthier population... there are a lot of good things here. Slow down disease spreading, catch conditions early, etc. etc.
- Help Domesitic corporations compete internationally. Right now our compaines have to pay their workers health care costs while the employees of their international competitors are often covered by the government. Imagine how much this type of system would help GM, Ford or United.
- Strengthen the economy and DRASTICALLY reduce the number of bankruptices (which are very expensive to both taxpayers and the economy)I'm sure there are other benefits I am not thinking of.I can't really think of too many negatives, but I'm sure someone will either come up with some or make some up (although we can throw the waiting in line fallacy out the window right now).Keep in mind that the US standard of care is pretty low for the western world right now, yet we spend BY FAR the most per citizen on health care of any country.So why do you support or not support universal healthcare?
(the loaded version of that question: Why do you think it's ok for people to die because their poor? hehehe)

Abolish private health care. What a repugnant idea that is. Then the folk with some pull would make damn sure universal health care became a reality. In a heartbeat in fact.It would also ensure it became damn efficient more quickly that any other spannering would.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Dude, did you even read what I wrote?I SPECIFICALLY SAID that this would not mean state run health care. We certainly could have a system where you could choose between many qualified private health plans. (sort of like the school voucher system ironically). Again, I don't mean to make doctors state employees or anything of the sort.Please read the OP next time.... I specifically went out of my way to make sure that I was clear about keeping private health care.In fact, those that wanted additional covereage would be free to purchase it.

this might be a little short and I don't think I'll be able to do much discussing today as I'm getting busy now and this weekend I probably won't be on either so this might look brushed aside. Well I'm probably not all that opposed to universal healthcare then. Government run seems shady...do most people oppose Gov. run healthcare? I think that quality will decrease with cost and I'm still not totally convinced that the cost, for me, will decrease. Yeah, I agree. eh...I dunno, If they weren't getting 'benefits' then I think people will just want higher salaries so I don't think I can really agree that universal health care is gonna be all that good for corps competing internationally. This one is a stretch. Seems like an insignificant strengthening to me..... Shit, I must not have gotten that memo. How has that been deemed a fallacy? You don't think there will be longer lines?What about it lowering the quality of health care? Yeah, so making it worse is even worse.

I think we are in agreement on some points. Keep in mind that we aren't talking about govt. run health care.Consider a system where everyone got a voucher for a certain level of health care (paid for by tax money) and every insurer could have one or more plans certified by the govt. to meet this level of care.There would still be competition (probably more, since there would be 10 s of millions of new customers).People would still be free to purchase supplemental care/coverage if they so wished. Why would the quality decrease? We would have the same system we have today except that the burden of caring for the uninsured would be eliminated. Personally, my company pays 100% of my health care so I would see no difference. This isn't a stretch at all. Take a look at employee benefit costs for a lot of big companies. In many cases the costs of these benefits equals or exceeds salary costs. International competitors DO NOT have to pay these costs. Have you been following the news about Ford and GM? They are going down the tubes almost solely because of health care costs. In fact, this reason is why you will see universal health care in the next 20 years. Some executives are starting to realize that universal health care would really help their bottom lines.In addition, you would be elminating A LOT of HR overhead. Health care costs weight on the economy FAR more than most people probably realize. Again, there are many large companies being dragged down by health care costs.I am assuming that I don't need to explain the 50+ % of bankruptcies. That's obvious evidence that there is a serious problem. Why would there be? There would be more people covered, but they would have insurance just like others have now. Ok, so should I assume that you didn't even read anything I wrote?Ask yourself this, why do other countries WITH universal health care have a higher standard of care yet spend less per citizen?We have by far the least efficient health care system in the developed world.In any case, it really frightens me that anyone could look at how we spend over 500 billion a year on defense yet think it's ok to let people die who are too poor to afford health care.We could fund the entire system just from the waste at the pentagon.I used to be against universal healthcare also catholic (in fact, when I was about your age)... Hopefully I can show you it's a no brainer Have a good weekend. I'm going out to take my first swim of the year in my pool!

Can one not disagree with an OP anymore? For a man who rejects state run you sure are a bit of a contradictionist!

You didn't disagree with it. You said I was proposing to abolish private health care which I went out of my way to say I WAS NOT proposing.Dude, you can disagree with whatever you want... but you are disagreeing with an OP that doesn't exist.Iano, I don't know if you think you were being clever and trying to erect some strawman or if you just didn't read the OP... but I'll quote for you. Wow, it doesn't say abolish private health care!!! Can you believe it!

I suggest that anyone interested in this topic study the following link.http://www.pnrec.org/2001papers/DaigneaultLajoie.pdfThe US manages to spend the most per patient of any of the G7 yet pretty much delivers the lowest quality of care.You can google it to see it in html (i edited to remove a RIDICULOUS link)It's a quick presentation that really isn't suitable for quoting so I apologize for the bare links.Edited by SuperNintendo Chalmers, : No reason given.

Not really. I think that the Government should be the single body actually purchasing many things like drugs, equipment, supplies. If the goverment is the purchaser it should allow some pretty drastic cost reductions for all parties. The suppliers can drop the costs of marketing, and the government as the buyer can demand lowest prices.What is needed though is to make sure that absurdities like the provisions the Republicans pushed through in the current SS drug bill, for example prohibitions of the government to require suppliers to demand lower prices for the drugs.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Ah I see what you mean.It can read that way. Or this way - the way intended"Abolish private health care" was ianos manifesto not yours"What a repugnant idea" was ianos justification of his manifestoYour reading was the more likely one. Poorly writtenEdited by iano, : apology

Gotcha... do they have universal healthcare in ireland? (just curious, yet too lazy to google)

The Idea is a noble one , but a I think bit impractical.Genuine questions/points:
1) I'm not clear who will pay for this Universal healthcare?2) With free universal healthcare for all, I think waiting times/lines would increase, people would be more likely to visit a doctor/hospital on a whim if they didn't have to pay for it.
for evidence, look at the NHS in the UK. there are people using NHS resources to get tattoos removed (for instance), while resources dictate that someone waits months for a vital operation. partially down to mismanagement perhaps, but a drain on resources nonetheless3)Increased demand will require increased doctors/nurses/staff, increased numbers of hospitals etc. etc. = increased costs.4) If people can pay for better/enhanced care, I think you will just end up with a two tier system, with the 'free' healthcare being taken care of by substandard, underfunded organisations, while the rich would languish in their hotel like private treatment rooms.again... this is the current system with the NHS in the UK , and I believe with the Irish system (iano?). what's happening is that over time thsings there are slowly moving towards the US system. the government isn't too motivated to make universal healthcare work because it is a pain in the arse and they'd rather be with out it.I know your not talking about Govt. healthcare, but I can't help thinking that it will go the same way. with providers realising where the money is, and effectively shutting down the cheaper options. Then you're back to square one.
or would you have some kind of legal requirement to provide Universal healthcare?

Price is a big negative for people who spend less on healthcare than the tax hike would cost them...Edited by Chronos, : Because I Hate Puppies

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Well I'm probably not all that opposed to universal healthcare then. Government run seems shady...do most people oppose Gov. run healthcare?

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Why on earth would you think there is anything "shady" about government-run health care?Most of the industrialized nations of the world have government-run healthcare, including Canada, most of Europe and all of Scandinavia.That is the norm just about everywhere else other than in the US, and has been for many decades.We are the odd ones out.

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I think that quality will decrease with cost and I'm still not totally convinced that the cost, for me, will decrease.

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Upon what data do you base your opinion?Tell me, what do you think is more expensive; heart disease that is detected (and a heart attack that is avoided) early in routine screenings and treated with drugs and nutrition and exercise, or a massive heart attack that requires open heart bypass surgery and weeks in intensive care?

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If they weren't getting 'benefits' then I think people will just want higher salaries so I don't think I can really agree that universal health care is gonna be all that good for corps competing internationally. This one is a stretch.

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No, it isn't. All, or some of the massive amount of money that corporations currently pay paying for healthcare for their workers woulnd't have to be set aside for that.When I recently changed jobs, I took a significant pay cut, but because I don't have to pay for health insurance now since I was covered on my husbands policy, my take home pay is higher.If both of us were covered just because we were citizens, then both of us would have higher takehome pay.I was on the benefits committe at my previous job. The costs are huge.

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Seems like an insignificant strengthening to me....

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Do you have any idea how much businesses pay to provide health insurance to their employees? Do you have any idea what percentage of personal bankruptices are a direct result of unforseen medical bills?

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How has that been deemed a fallacy? You don't think there will be longer lines?

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Why would there have to be?

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What about it lowering the quality of health care?

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Why would it have to lower the quality?Besides, there are many millions of people in the US right now who don't get any routine health care at all, so I think that the quality for them would rise significantly.

What does health insurance cost there? Here, private health care has grades but the tip-top insurance plan would cast maybe $1000/yr for a single person - maybe $2000 for a family. The main provider (a semi-state company) supplies on the basis of "community rating": it doesn't matter if your 22 or 58 - you pay the same premium.