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Author Topic:   Life & Alchemy
AshsZ
Member (Idle past 5400 days)
Posts: 35
From: Edgewater, FL USA
Joined: 05-17-2008


Message 1 of 12 (466839)
05-17-2008 1:11 PM


New member here - been reading many of the intriguing threads on this forum for most of the evening and feel compelled, almost obligated to sign on and join in. I spend a lot of energy seeking individuals in my leisure time who share similar intellectual interests - most being few and far between. Finding this site feels like a great door just opened before me.
I've read many of the threads here regarding the "Origin of Life" - lots of replies offering up info on various theories and lab experiements, etc.. Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be any solid explanations to this question. However, I wanted to pose a thought, consider it my first venture here of getting my feet wet.
There are really only two fundamental perspectives one can take to answer the question. Either 1) Creationism, or 2) Natural Process. If one makes up their mind that a "god" supplied option #1, that is a choice to leave science, logic, reason, etc. at the door. Perspective #2 is the obvious approach to understanding the process by way of specific natural mechanisms. But the essence in questioning the origin of life is a matter of whether one believes that life arose from natural processes or that it was just stamped into existece by a creator along some miraculous timeline.
Perhaps right now there aren't any good explanations as to how exactly the chemistry came together giving rise to life - It is an incredibly difficult mechanism to try and get one's head around. On the same token though, understanding the mechanism of how a star composed of the simplest form of matter can grow it into more and more complex forms of matter is the perfect illustration of the creative natural processes that exist within the stuff of everything. We are positive that life is here and there were natural processes at work giving rise to it - no different an understanding from recognizing the natural processes that allow stars the mind-boggling feat of literally alchemizing substance.
The first "life" structure coming about was a step in the process of change the universe underwent at a point in time long ago and continued to change. Whether there is any intelligence behind the construct of the universe is irrelevant - one can choose to believe there is an intelligent designer/pilot or not and it doesn't change how things work or how things are. The universe is what it is and the natural laws which govern its processes can be understood. The natural laws that exist today are the same natural laws that have and always will be a part of this universe - she doesn't make exceptions, never has, never will. We obviously dont have all of the information at the moment to know the exact steps that led to life, but the chemical processes that were involved aren't beyond understanding. In this view, to believe life arose in any other way means throwing simple, basic reasoning out the window.
Just to clarify though - the aforementioned "thoughts" are just a perspective but it seems pretty compelling after compiling it into words. Any flukes with this thinking?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Agobot, posted 05-17-2008 2:55 PM AshsZ has replied

Adminnemooseus
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Message 2 of 12 (466851)
05-17-2008 2:25 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 3 of 12 (466858)
05-17-2008 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by AshsZ
05-17-2008 1:11 PM


Your logic is sound and right. What i'd like to add is that we are hitting a very big wall, when we try to figure out why the universe seems to be infinite(in a material world). Infinite universe could very well mean that we don't exist(life is a dream) or that there is a god and everything we know about the universe is a lie/illusion(although i wouldn't wager more than 5 euro cents on that theory).
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by AshsZ, posted 05-17-2008 1:11 PM AshsZ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Perdition, posted 05-17-2008 3:35 PM Agobot has replied
 Message 7 by AshsZ, posted 05-17-2008 4:09 PM Agobot has replied

Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 4 of 12 (466863)
05-17-2008 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Agobot
05-17-2008 2:55 PM


Define Infinite in respect to the Universe?
Do you mean it won't end, it will expnad forever, then you're on pretty solid ground there, I suppose, but I see no reason that would lead to us being a dream.
If you mean the Universe is infinite in size, then that's pretty much the opposite of the current understanding of the Universe as being finite but unbounded. That very idea spawned a convoluted thred called "Spherical Issues," if you have the time and the stomach, you may find that topic interesting.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Agobot, posted 05-17-2008 2:55 PM Agobot has replied

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Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 5 of 12 (466868)
05-17-2008 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Perdition
05-17-2008 3:35 PM


I meant to say space was infinite. That defies all logic and rebuffs every scientific explanation we could come up with. But it is so. Unless, of course, you go... "it has always been like that, so we don't need to figure out why it is so" route.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
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Adminnemooseus
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Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 6 of 12 (466869)
05-17-2008 3:53 PM


Not a origin of the universe topic
Such got vaguely mentioned in passing, but I interpreted this to be an "Origin of Life" topic. Thus the forum it is in.
Adminnemooseus

AshsZ
Member (Idle past 5400 days)
Posts: 35
From: Edgewater, FL USA
Joined: 05-17-2008


Message 7 of 12 (466872)
05-17-2008 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Agobot
05-17-2008 2:55 PM


The universe does not seem to be infinite. There is actually a limit to how far out things "appear to exist" in our universe.
Observable universe - Wikipedia
My original post was hoping to prompt conversation on origins of life tho. :-/

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Agobot, posted 05-17-2008 2:55 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Agobot, posted 05-17-2008 4:19 PM AshsZ has not replied
 Message 9 by Adminnemooseus, posted 05-17-2008 4:25 PM AshsZ has not replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 8 of 12 (466873)
05-17-2008 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by AshsZ
05-17-2008 4:09 PM


From the link you posted...
"No evidence exists to suggest that the boundary of the observable universe corresponds precisely to the physical boundary of the universe (if such a boundary exists); this is exceedingly..."
Now, if you want to discuss the origin of life, I'd suggest you ask about the origin of the universe as well, the observable and beyond(infinite). Because that's where our logic stops working. How life came to be on our planet was covered in more threads here, than i care to count and if you are interested in it, just use the search option.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 9 of 12 (466877)
05-17-2008 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by AshsZ
05-17-2008 4:09 PM


Re-propose the topic - This one closing down
I'm not going to diddle around further with topic drift control attempts.
Do a rewrite, and run it through the Proposed New Topics forum again.
Adminnemooseus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by AshsZ, posted 05-17-2008 4:09 PM AshsZ has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 10 of 12 (466883)
05-18-2008 8:12 AM


Reopening this topic
Adminnemooseus isn't on-line at the moment, so I'm reopening this thread. I think I understand his concerns, which I think are related to the way this origins of life topic was introduced. I think he's concerned that the next to last paragraph makes it ambiguous about whether this thread is about origins of life or origins of the natural physical laws of the universe.
So I'm ruling that the topic of this thread is strictly origins of life. I'll enforce topic drift with very short suspensions.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

AshsZ
Member (Idle past 5400 days)
Posts: 35
From: Edgewater, FL USA
Joined: 05-17-2008


Message 11 of 12 (467020)
05-19-2008 5:17 AM


Thankyou, Percy!
The various subjects this forum entertains are almost all one in the same - only slight variations in the essence of dialogue. I wouldn't worry too much about trying to specifically classify this post at the moment - too vague right now.
Since I haven't seen any objection to my original post thus far, perhaps I'll take that one step further and see if it would be acceptable..
If one subscribes to the concept that everything behaves according to natural law, what does that say for the concept of free-will? If everything behaves according to a fixed set of action-reaction script, wouldn't that mean that we too are confined to these bounds?
Perhaps this is the very conundrum people grapple with? If it isn't creationism, then it is chemistry, which means everything is just an elaborate, prediatable machine. On the other hand, if it is creationism, then we aren't necessarily bound to strict cause-effect relationships.
But what about the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? This principle shows that even if you try to understand the operation of matter at its fundamental particles, say, in an attempt to predict future events, there lay a limit to knowing all of the information necessary for predicting an outcome. Perhaps this uncertainty itself is what provides us free-will?
Edited by AshsZ, : No reason given.

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
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Message 12 of 12 (467037)
05-19-2008 8:35 AM


Thread copied to the Life & Alchemy thread in the Proposed New Topics forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.

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