Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,808 Year: 3,065/9,624 Month: 910/1,588 Week: 93/223 Day: 4/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is the bible the word of God or men?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 1 of 309 (427872)
10-13-2007 9:33 AM


In another thread simple made the following declarations.
The bible says God is a spirit. That I take as a clue. The angels are spirits, that also I take as a clue. We have spirits, and go there when we die, another clue. Need more??????
That might sound good to you, except that the bible says there really are spirits, a flying throne, and a Christmas star. You have presented no science or bible against these things. Now, before you lecture on reason, remember you got nothin!
I am willing to take the masochistic route here and debate the notion that the bible is the word of god as simple seems to assume.
My question requires that simple clarify for us how he knows that the bible is the word of God.
Of course the bible:accuracy and inerrancy is where this topic should go.
Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

God does not exist until there is proof he does.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by pelican, posted 10-22-2007 3:39 AM sidelined has not replied
 Message 5 by Force, posted 10-22-2007 8:52 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 28 by Elhardt, posted 10-28-2007 12:18 AM sidelined has replied
 Message 36 by pelican, posted 11-19-2007 6:53 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 216 by doctrbill, posted 12-27-2007 1:10 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 231 by pelican, posted 01-27-2008 9:03 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 232 by TheTruth, posted 02-13-2008 9:32 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 305 by MentalSword, posted 02-19-2009 10:34 PM sidelined has not replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 2 of 309 (429859)
10-22-2007 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
10-13-2007 9:33 AM


Bible is no big deal
Surely as the bible is said to be inspired by god through man's thoughts, imaginations and experiences, then so is every other book.
What's the big deal? The big deal is what human's make of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 10-13-2007 9:33 AM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by bluescat48, posted 10-22-2007 7:37 PM pelican has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 3 of 309 (429960)
10-22-2007 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by pelican
10-22-2007 3:39 AM


Re: Bible is no big deal
Surely as the bible is said to be inspired by god through man's thoughts, imaginations and experiences, then so is every other book.
What's the big deal? The big deal is what human's make of it.
That is one of it's major problems, what humans make of it. Many humans make it just what they want it to mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by pelican, posted 10-22-2007 3:39 AM pelican has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Force, posted 10-22-2007 8:44 PM bluescat48 has not replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 309 (429972)
10-22-2007 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by bluescat48
10-22-2007 7:37 PM


Re: Bible is no big deal
bump
Edited by trossthree, : new comment -p.s.
Edited by trossthree, : No reason given.

Thanks
trossthree

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by bluescat48, posted 10-22-2007 7:37 PM bluescat48 has not replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 309 (429974)
10-22-2007 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
10-13-2007 9:33 AM


repost
Greetings,
The scriptures in the Bible(not just in the bible though) have been hand copied for thousands of years and therefor it may not contain any of the original meaning(we have no autographs).
Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.
Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.

Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 10-13-2007 9:33 AM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by pelican, posted 10-22-2007 9:09 PM Force has replied
 Message 13 by Kapyong, posted 10-22-2007 11:26 PM Force has replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 6 of 309 (429976)
10-22-2007 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Force
10-22-2007 8:52 PM


Re: repost
P.S. I consider all scripture inspired by GOD but however written by man. The Bible is compiled by man and written by man. Thus the Bible is the words of man but the WORD(metaphore) of God.
Do you mean that the bible can be interpreted metaphorically rather than literally?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Force, posted 10-22-2007 8:52 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Force, posted 10-22-2007 10:29 PM pelican has not replied

subconscious
Junior Member (Idle past 6000 days)
Posts: 8
Joined: 10-22-2007


Message 7 of 309 (429981)
10-22-2007 10:23 PM


quote:
Is the bible the word of God or men?
if we look at the "word" in its original form, mainly referring to the original hebrew translation, we see how the word of God was delivered.
my standpoint is that the bible is the word of God.
mainly the torah.
the torah is the first five books of the bible or old testament.
on mt. sinai after exodus YHVH spoke to moses and gave instruction and new rules for observing the one true God for moses to deliver to the israelites. this instruction from God to moses is referred to as the oral torah, the oral torah was spoken to moses to instill the word of God in moses' heart and mind. the written form of the oral torah is the actual torah, where an israelite would be able to access instruction on how to properly observe and worship YHVH. otherwise known as the pentetauch or the first five books of the bible.
YHVH in the hebrew tradition teaches all that ever was or will be is contained in the first five books or torah. and this was delivered by God to moses via oral tradition and moses was the first to pass this on to the israelites at mt.sinai.
so the word of God passed to moses on mt.sinai later written in form of the torah or the pentetauch is the "written word of God", from the very first letter to the last, alpha and omega, the torah.
everything else after in the bible could be considered the inspired word of God as transcribed by men. but the torah is the word of God deliverd by God.
the new testement is contemplation and perspective of those considering the after effects of what CHRIST INFLUENCED ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF THE OLD TESTEMENT.

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Force, posted 10-22-2007 10:51 PM subconscious has not replied
 Message 15 by arachnophilia, posted 10-23-2007 1:06 AM subconscious has not replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 309 (429985)
10-22-2007 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by pelican
10-22-2007 9:09 PM


Re: repost
Heinrik,
Heinrik writes:
Do you mean that the bible can be interpreted metaphorically rather than literally
I mean that the Bible is only and should only be interpreted metaphorically.

Thanks
trossthree

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by pelican, posted 10-22-2007 9:09 PM pelican has not replied

subconscious
Junior Member (Idle past 6000 days)
Posts: 8
Joined: 10-22-2007


Message 9 of 309 (429989)
10-22-2007 10:45 PM


the word is both literal and metaphorical.
the bible is an extremely encoded compilation.
google the legend of pardes......it is in this story of ancient hebrew sages that found themselves in the orchard of pardes debating wether the word of God was literal, allegorical, or metaphorical etc.
in the end they decided that there are four levels to every one verse of the bible, on one level the line could be read literally and give meaning, on another level you could read it metaphorically and receive meaning, and there are two other levels of considering a verse or verses from the bible, but i would have to brush up on this as well, for i have forgotten.
all that said, in all of God's beauty i would believe IMO that He was capable of implying many levels of meaning within one verse.
just as the written word of man through different translations and renderings of the bible could have been perverted or dejudaified for whatever reason, the notion that the words of the bible should be read either metaphorical alone or literal alone could also be a perversion as to askew mans perspective.

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Force, posted 10-22-2007 10:56 PM subconscious has not replied
 Message 16 by arachnophilia, posted 10-23-2007 1:16 AM subconscious has not replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 309 (429990)
10-22-2007 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by subconscious
10-22-2007 10:23 PM


subconscious,
subconcious writes:
everything else after in the bible could be considered the inspired word of God as transcribed by men. but the torah is the word of God deliverd by God.
Are you describing that God/elohim/eloheim/yahwah/lol/ has some scripture in Heaven that it delivered to Moses on Mt Sinai?

Thanks
trossthree

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by subconscious, posted 10-22-2007 10:23 PM subconscious has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by arachnophilia, posted 10-23-2007 1:18 AM Force has replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 309 (429991)
10-22-2007 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by subconscious
10-22-2007 10:45 PM


subconscious,
subconscious writes:
the word is both literal and metaphorical.
the bible is an extremely encoded compilation.
Show me an example. Quote some scripture and give me a short commentary.

Thanks
trossthree

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by subconscious, posted 10-22-2007 10:45 PM subconscious has not replied

subconscious
Junior Member (Idle past 6000 days)
Posts: 8
Joined: 10-22-2007


Message 12 of 309 (429993)
10-22-2007 10:59 PM


i have supplied one reference for you to google and that is the legend of pardes from ancient hebrew tradition, i have to log off now, if that is not satifactory, i will be back tomorrow.

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by AdminPD, posted 10-23-2007 9:00 AM subconscious has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 13 of 309 (429996)
10-22-2007 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Force
10-22-2007 8:52 PM


Re: repost
Hi all,
quote:
The Bible is a book that contains some of the entirety of scripture available to us, that has been handcrafted by the Council of Nicea
Trossthree -
the Council of Nicea had nothing to do with choosing the books of the Bible.
This is merely a common urban legend.
Iasion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Force, posted 10-22-2007 8:52 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Force, posted 10-23-2007 4:56 PM Kapyong has replied

kam1953f
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 309 (430004)
10-23-2007 12:11 AM


Bible - Word - Metaphor
When you get down to it, aren't words themselves metaphors?
The Bible can be "the word of God," and Jesus was "the Word" (Logos) for John the Evangelist. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."
Throughout his writings, John goes on to draw an elaborate word-metaphor equating creation with every word that comes forth from the mouth of God. When God speaks, he breathes outward. In sending forth his spirit "they are created;" he "inspires," meaning that he breathes life into some of his creatures. So his word borne by the Holy Spirit is life, and he sent life to earth in the form of Jesus, the Logos.
Such is my memory of the stuffy RC theology I was taught about this passage.
For fun, lately, I compare standard translations with "The Message."
John 1
The Life-Light
1-2 The Word was first,
the Word present to God,
God present to the Word.
The Word was God,
in readiness for God from day one.
3-5Everything was created through him;
nothing”not one thing!”
came into being without him.
What came into existence was Life,
and the Life was Light to live by.
The Life-Light blazed out of the darkness;
the darkness couldn't put it out.
Here is an explanation of this "reading Bible." The Message (MSG) - Version Information - BibleGateway.com

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 15 of 309 (430017)
10-23-2007 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by subconscious
10-22-2007 10:23 PM


on mt. sinai after exodus YHVH spoke to moses
or mt. horeb. depending.
this instruction from God to moses is referred to as the oral torah, the oral torah was spoken to moses to instill the word of God in moses' heart and mind. the written form of the oral torah is the actual torah,
the "oral law" or "oral torah" is the talmud.
but the torah is the word of God deliverd by God.
unfortunately, this is nothing but old tradition. textual analysis (even medieval textual analysis) demonstrates pretty clearly that moshe could not have written the torah. for starters, it describes his death.
there are a host of other problems. some of the more obvious issues are the anachronisms, things that moshe should not have written about living between 1400 and 1100 BC (and not phrased as prophecy, either). the grammar indicates a much later date for the torah, between 900 and 600 BC. another of the more obvious issues are the duplications. through them, it becomes clear that the story is being told by two separate voices, who have been stitched together very craftily by an editor.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by subconscious, posted 10-22-2007 10:23 PM subconscious has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by tesla, posted 12-22-2007 10:18 PM arachnophilia has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024