Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   HaShem - Yahweh or Jehovah?
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 1 of 164 (161247)
11-18-2004 7:30 PM


to avoid an offtopic discussion in another thread, and answer wmscott's reply http://EvC Forum: How Can Trinity Believers Explain This -->EvC Forum: How Can Trinity Believers Explain This.
As crazy as the Y to J thing is, it is the way they do things
uh, no, it's the way german and early english translators do things.
lets look at the way MODERN english translators do things. these are from the latest masoretic translation, translated by hebrew rabbis who are also fluent in english.
quote:
Exodus 6:2-3
God spoke to Moses and said to him, "I am the LORD. I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as El Shaddai, but I did not make myself known to them by My name יהוה."
now, LORD = YHWH = יהוה. it's all the same exact word. El is a less formal title for god, related to "Elowah" which is the singular of "Eloyhim" by which god is also called. Shaddai means "almighty" so he's saying that he refered to himself simply as the mightiest god to the patriarchs, but now he's giving moses his real name. it's silly to render this text "by My name LORD" because it doesn't say his name is אדני it says יהוה. the translator is trying to get the name right, in english.
but it doesn't say anything different from the first "LORD." both are יהוה.
the two verses in isaiah choose to render the repition יה יהוה as "Yah the LORD." this rendition treats hashem like a title, and the derivitive title like a nickname, which is not EXACTLY correct, but captures the meaning of the original verse. the kjv chooses render יה as "LORD" which is inconsistent with the rest of the text. everywhere else, יהוה is rendered as "LORD" but here it must be rendered as something else to avoid repition.
Plus when names are transliterated into English, 'Y's become 'J's as we see in so many biblical names.
and incorrectly so.
Plus from the transliteration of other names which contain the divine name the evidence indicates that the Name had an "O" sound in it, which Jehovah does and Yahweh does not, plus it appears the Name was 3 syllables long instead of 2, which Jehovah also has in it's favor. So for a transliteration in to English, Jehovah has better support for than does Yahweh.
let's read in exodus chapter four, from about verse 11.
quote:
Moses said to God, "When I come to the Israelites and say to them 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" And God said to Moses, "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh."
that's nice and all, but what does it mean? it could mean "I am what I am" or "I will be what I will be" etc. this is actually a JOKE, mind you. It's god telling moses that he doesn't really HAVE a name at all, he's just himself, and then telling moses to go make himself look stupid in from of the israelites. it's also a response to the belief that you can control a spirit by its name. if god doesn't have one, he's the most powerful spirit of all. god is all of existance, he is that which exists.
and so his "name" is a play on "ehyah." it's a pun, his name should SOUND like "ehyah" ... "yahweh."
-- King James
Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Psalms 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.
Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
Isaiah 26:4 Trust ye in the Lord for ever: for in the Lord Jehovah is everlasting strength:
yes, thank you, i have a concordance.
just because some translators wrote it that way doesn't mean it's correct or "in the bible." like i said, moses doesn't part the red sea, it's a translation error, and a rather persistent one. this one is ALSO an error.
My point was that they chose the transliteration of "Jehovah" for the divine name which was already in common usage by then, and by doing so established it even more firmly as the name of God in English.
no, this is incorrect. the name came about when they transliterated יהוה with the vowel pointings that should belong to אדני so you spoke "adni" instead "yhwh". it was never ment to read with those vowels.
In Latin 'Jehovah' begins with an "I"
sean connery is right, it does. if you had a latin vulgate bible, or a greek bible, hashem would read "IHVH" and in english we'd make that "JHVH". but these are translations of translations.
http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/ play with this a little a while, and see what it does to meanings.
Jehovah and Jesus fit well and are well known, their modern Hebrew equivalents are very largely unknown by English speakers and have an odd unfamiliar sound to them.
i would argue that most well known name for god is "God" followed by "LORD" and that those are two we should use.
i want to also address the point that "Jehovah" is a common translation of YHWH. i'll ignore for a second that everywhere but four verses is it translated "LORD" and just look at how various other translations render it. here's isaiah chapter 12, verse 2.
quote:
The Septuagint (200 BCE)
idou o qeos mou swthr mou kurios pepoiqws esomai ep autw kai swqhsomai en autw kai ou fobhqhsomai dioti h doxa mou kai h ainesis mou kurios kai egeneto moi eis swthrian
quote:
Latin Vulgate (AD 405)
ecce Deus salvator meus fiducialiter agam et non timebo quia fortitudo mea et laus mea Dominus Deus et factus est mihi in salutem
quote:
King Jame Version (1611)
Behold, God [is] my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH [is] my strength and [my] song; he also is become my salvation.
quote:
Noah Webster Version (1833)
Behold, God [is] my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH [is] my strength and [my] song; he also is become my salvation.
quote:
Robert Young Literal Translation (1898)
Lo, God [is] my salvation, I trust, and fear not, For my strength and song [is] Jah Jehovah, And He is to me for salvation.
quote:
J.N.Darby Translation (1890)
Behold, God is my salvation: I will trust, and not be afraid; for Jah, Jehovah, is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation.
quote:
American Standard Version (1901)
Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid; for Jehovah, [even] Jehovah, is my strength and song; and he is become my salvation.
quote:
Revised Standard Version (1952)
Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid; for the LORD GOD is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation.
quote:
Jewish Publication Society (Masoretic, 1962)
Behold the God who gives me triumph!
I am confident, unafraid;
For Yah the LORD is my strength and might,
And He has been my deliverance.
quote:
New King James Version (1982)
Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; For Yah, the Lord, is my strength and song; He also has become my salvation.
quote:
New American Standard Bible (1995)
Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; For the LORD GOD is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation.
quote:
New Living Translation (1996)
See, God has come to save me.
    I will trust in him and not be afraid.
  The LORD GOD is my strength and my song;
    he has become my salvation.
quote:
Hebrew Names Version (2000)
Behold, God is my salvation. I will trust, and will not be afraid; for the LORD, the LORD, is my strength and song; and he has become my yeshu`ah.
LORD - 8
Jehovah - 5
i've arranged these translations chronologically, to demonstrate my point. i want you to notice something, well, kurios. the people who translated the septuagint read it "LORD" (kurios) because they were greek-speaking jews. the latin vulgate also renders it "LORD" (dominus). (feel free to check those, btw)
then, the english king james comes along and messes it up for 300 years. notice that all the "jehovah" ones are consectutive?
(also strange is that only NLT and JPS recognize that it's poetry. the hebrew doesn't indicate because the original didn't even have line breaks, spaces, vowels, or punctuation. poetry was indicated by pairing statements. it makes sense in english to break it into lines however. it's more evidence that the people doing the other translations didn't know what they were doing. the poeticality of this verse is apparent to just about anyone. not coincidentally, both of the translations that correctly render this passage as poetry also render hashem as "LORD.")

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2004 2:26 AM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 8 by Wounded King, posted 11-19-2004 8:52 AM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 13 by wmscott, posted 11-19-2004 7:22 PM arachnophilia has not replied
 Message 14 by wmscott, posted 11-19-2004 7:23 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 11-22-2004 9:31 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 40 by purpledawn, posted 11-29-2004 10:25 AM arachnophilia has not replied
 Message 62 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-02-2004 11:43 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 164 (161299)
11-18-2004 10:09 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by arachnophilia, posted 11-19-2004 12:09 AM AdminJar has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 3 of 164 (161349)
11-19-2004 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminJar
11-18-2004 10:09 PM


i was thinking more along the lines of the bible forum, as it deals with a specific faith, and various translation of the text. i'm not arguing that yahweh and jehovah are different gods to be believed in, but that one is the more correct textual rendering.
but i suppose this could work too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 11-18-2004 10:09 PM AdminJar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminJar, posted 11-19-2004 12:13 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 164 (161351)
11-19-2004 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by arachnophilia
11-19-2004 12:09 AM


Then leave notes for the old man.
It's hard enough just remembering where I am without trying to figure out where you want to be.
Moving yet again. This sucker better have legs.

How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by arachnophilia, posted 11-19-2004 12:09 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 11-19-2004 1:08 AM AdminJar has not replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 164 (161352)
11-19-2004 12:14 AM


Thread moved here from the Faith and Belief forum.

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 6 of 164 (161369)
11-19-2004 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminJar
11-19-2004 12:13 AM


Re: Then leave notes for the old man.
Moving yet again. This sucker better have legs.
thanks.
hopefully it gets some attention. i'm sort of hoping amlodhi in particular can show why the modern choice for pronounciation is what it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by AdminJar, posted 11-19-2004 12:13 AM AdminJar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Amlodhi, posted 11-22-2004 1:58 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 7 of 164 (161381)
11-19-2004 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by arachnophilia
11-18-2004 7:30 PM


My understanding
As I understand it "LORD" is a translation of "Adonai" which is the word Jews substitute for the name when it is read out loud.
The transliteration Jehovah is German so the "J" would be pronounced like the English "Y". Yahweh is the best attempt (using English pronunciation) but no transliteration is certain since the actual pronunciation of the name has been lost (mainly because Hebrew is written without vowels and the textual markers used to assist working out what the vowels should be are for "Adonai" rather than the actual name).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by arachnophilia, posted 11-18-2004 7:30 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by arachnophilia, posted 11-19-2004 5:35 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 8 of 164 (161443)
11-19-2004 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by arachnophilia
11-18-2004 7:30 PM


You're only making it worse for yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by arachnophilia, posted 11-18-2004 7:30 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by arachnophilia, posted 11-19-2004 5:36 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 9 of 164 (161562)
11-19-2004 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by PaulK
11-19-2004 2:26 AM


Re: My understanding
As I understand it "LORD" is a translation of "Adonai" which is the word Jews substitute for the name when it is read out loud.
yes, exactly. the name jehovah came about as a misunderstanding of the notation for that substitution and is therefore an error.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2004 2:26 AM PaulK has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 10 of 164 (161563)
11-19-2004 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Wounded King
11-19-2004 8:52 AM


You're only making it worse for yourself.
oh, but i wanted an excuse to type in hebrew, greek, and latin all in one post!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Wounded King, posted 11-19-2004 8:52 AM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Nighttrain, posted 11-19-2004 6:46 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 11 of 164 (161584)
11-19-2004 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by arachnophilia
11-19-2004 5:36 PM


And done very nicely, may I say

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by arachnophilia, posted 11-19-2004 5:36 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 12 of 164 (161594)
11-19-2004 7:06 PM


Leaving aside Kamal Salibi`s claim (The Bible Came From Arabia), I find his discussion of the origins of Yahweh fascinating. Whether Yahweh came from a pantheon of gods or no, his explanation of onomastics and metathesis in Semitic languages has opened up new lines of thought in my fuzzy brain. Pity he wasn`t refuted on a more serious level instead of the knee-jerk assaults that took place.

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-22-2004 7:07 PM Nighttrain has not replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 13 of 164 (161605)
11-19-2004 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by arachnophilia
11-18-2004 7:30 PM


Jehovah is the Name, lord & god are only titles.
Dear Arachnophilia;
It was very wise of you to open this as a different thread to avoid being off topic, I was concerned about that. I should clarify my position that I am saying that the name "Jehovah" is the best choice in English to use for God. I am not saying it is the way the Name was pronounced in ancient Hebrew. Merely that it is the most commonly known and has long been used, and hence it is the most recognizable form of the Name to use. This is important, because the goal in communication is to be understood. I disagree with the other viewpoint that everyone on the planet should try to pronounce the Name the way the ancient Israelites did, since who speaks ancient Hebrew? and the exact pronunciation is not known for sure and would be a strange and hard to pronounce name to the speakers of most languages anyway.
quote:
It's god telling Moses that he doesn't really HAVE a name at all, he's just himself, and then telling Moses to go make himself look stupid in from of the Israelites. it's also a response to the belief that you can control a spirit by its name. if god doesn't have one, he's the most powerful spirit of all. god is all of existence, he is that which exists.
Moses already knew Jehovah's name, he recorded at Genesis 4:26 "At that time a start was made of calling on the name of Jehovah." that God's name was already known and used before the flood. In the Bible knowing some one's name can have the meaning of knowing their reputation, what their name means in terms of what the person is. Moses was asking not for what Jehovah's name was, which he already knew, he was asking if he was to have evidence of miraculous divine backing. Jehovah was telling him he would prove to be with Moses.
quote:
i would argue that most well known name for god is "God" followed by "LORD" and that those are two we should use.
The terms 'god' and 'lord' are titles not names, like the English "My Lord". They also by themselves fail to identify the one spoken about, which God? or what Lord, after all Jesus is Lord of Lords. That is why Jehovah has a personal name.
I had been trying to wrap this discussion up, make my points and quietly exit. To support your new discussion I will attach below something I wrote earlier on the divine name. Since I wrote it before even getting to this discussion with you, don't read anything personal into it.
An additional and very obvious and important trait that any true followers of Jesus would have is that they would undoubtedly have great respect for God's name as Jesus did. Matthew 6:9 (REB) "Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed;" That verse of course is the opening line of the most famous prayer in all the world. Jesus in demonstrating to his followers how to pray, put the sanctification of his father's name first and in his ministry Jesus also always put the sanctification of his father's name first. At John 12:28 (REB) Jesus states. "Father, glorify your name.' A voice came from heaven: 'I have glorified it, and I will glorify I again.'" Very evidently the glorifying of God's name is very important to both God and Jesus, and should be very important to those who claim to be Christians. But the problem is, if you ask most Christians what God's name is, they will say "Jesus." However Jesus did not come to here to honor himself, he always directed the praise to his father. His whole life was one of self sacrifice and obedient devotion to the doing of his father's will. So that raises the question; if God's name isn't Jesus, what is it? Answering this question isn't hard, but it is harder than it should be. For there has been a conspiracy to do away with the very name of God. Newer Bible translations generally omit God's name entirely from God's very own book. It is shocking even to think about it, God's Name erased from most translations of the Bible with most Christians today not even knowing what it is. The divine name is however still found in some Bibles. One place you can find it is in the old King James Bible at Psalms 83:18 "That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the Most High over all the earth." Jehovah is God's name in English, in Hebrew it is Yahweh, taken from the Hebrew tetragram YHWH. Ancient Hebrew was written using only constants, so it is not certain what the exact vowels where that went with YHWH. But it doesn't really matter for the English translation, for when translating a name it is common practice to use the most widely accepted form. Many names under go a dramatic change when translated. In going from Hebrew to English, "Y" becomes "J" and "W" becomes "V". So YHWH becomes JHVH.
Hence "Jehovah" is as close as we can hope to come to the proper pronunciation of the divine name in English. Plus the name Jehovah wins by default anyway being the most common and the oldest name used for God in English. The name Jehovah has long been accepted as God's name and is used in old Bibles, classic books and even many movie films. From "Pollyanna" to "The Last Crusade," Hollywood seems to have made the divine name more widely known than many modern Bible translations and most Christian religions have, with one obvious exception of course. Considering the fact that most religions have turned their back on Jehovah's name, one has to wonder if he has turned his back on them.
It is only fairly recently that Christian religions have forgotten God's name. Like a recent memory, traces of Jehovah's name are still found in the collective memory of Christendom. Old Bibles and song books still carry the name Jehovah and fragments of it are found in modern writings as well. The shortened form of Jehovah is "Jah" and is contained in the word "hallelujah" which means praise Jah or praise Jehovah. Many Bibles that have removed the name Jehovah, often still have hallelujah at Revelation 19:1. "Jah" is also part of many biblical names such as Elijah, Adonijah, Urijah, Jahleel and biblical place names like Jahaz. The reason the shortened form of the divine name was used as part of names, was that each name had a meaning, Elijah means "my god is Jehovah." You really don't have to dig very deep to find out that God's name is Jehovah, because those who would wish to bury it, have only had time to dig a shallow grave.
Failing to keep Jehovah's name buried, they have a second tactic, confusion. They point out that we don't know the exact pronunciation of God's name and thus many forms are possible, so we shouldn't use any. Their real motive of not wanting to have Jehovah's name known shows through their false reasoning. For as we pointed out earlier, when translating a name into another language, it is standard procedure to use the most widely known form. We know the constants in the name Jehovah are correct, and the vowels used fit in well with English pronunciation and the name is far more widely know than any other variation. As for other known forms of God's name, "Yahweh" comes in at a distant second place. Yahweh however is not a English name, it is a Hebrew name. Using the Hebrew name for God in English makes as much sense as using Yeshua (Hebrew) or Iesous (Greek) for Jesus in English. Perhaps some are uncomfortable with using the name of the living God, so if they must use it, they prefer not to even translate it, keeping it at a safe distance in another language. The true followers of Christ do not hesitate to use Jehovah's name and do their best to make it known. Those who do not use Jehovah's name betray their true motives in not being true followers of Jehovah's son Jesus Christ by having little interest in the sanctification of a name they avoid using, but was of the utmost importance to Jesus Christ. For think about, the Almighty is almighty, don't you think he would see to it that the most commonly used form of his name was the form he wanted to be used? The name Jehovah is the best English approximation of God's name and it apparently has the approval of Jehovah himself, since he could have caused things to have turned out differently if he had preferred a different pronunciation or spelling of his name.
Sincerely Yours; Wm. Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by arachnophilia, posted 11-18-2004 7:30 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 14 of 164 (161606)
11-19-2004 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by arachnophilia
11-18-2004 7:30 PM


Jehovah is the Name, lord & god are only titles.
Dear Arachnophilia;
It was very wise of you to open this as a different thread to avoid being off topic, I was concerned about that. I should clarify my position that I am saying that the name "Jehovah" is the best choice in English to use for God. I am not saying it is the way the Name was pronounced in ancient Hebrew. Merely that it is the most commonly known and has long been used, and hence it is the most recognizable form of the Name to use. This is important, because the goal in communication is to be understood. I disagree with the other viewpoint that everyone on the planet should try to pronounce the Name the way the ancient Israelites did, since who speaks ancient Hebrew? and the exact pronunciation is not known for sure and would be a strange and hard to pronounce name to the speakers of most languages anyway.
quote:
It's god telling Moses that he doesn't really HAVE a name at all, he's just himself, and then telling Moses to go make himself look stupid in from of the Israelites. it's also a response to the belief that you can control a spirit by its name. if god doesn't have one, he's the most powerful spirit of all. god is all of existence, he is that which exists.
Moses already knew Jehovah's name, he recorded at Genesis 4:26 "At that time a start was made of calling on the name of Jehovah." that God's name was already known and used before the flood. In the Bible knowing some one's name can have the meaning of knowing their reputation, what their name means in terms of what the person is. Moses was asking not for what Jehovah's name was, which he already knew, he was asking if he was to have evidence of miraculous divine backing. Jehovah was telling him he would prove to be with Moses.
quote:
i would argue that most well known name for god is "God" followed by "LORD" and that those are two we should use.
The terms 'god' and 'lord' are titles not names, like the English "My Lord". They also by themselves fail to identify the one spoken about, which God? or what Lord, after all Jesus is Lord of Lords. That is why Jehovah has a personal name.
I had been trying to wrap this discussion up, make my points and quietly exit. To support your new discussion I will attach below something I wrote earlier on the divine name. Since I wrote it before even getting to this discussion with you, don't read anything personal into it.
An additional and very obvious and important trait that any true followers of Jesus would have is that they would undoubtedly have great respect for God's name as Jesus did. Matthew 6:9 (REB) "Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed;" That verse of course is the opening line of the most famous prayer in all the world. Jesus in demonstrating to his followers how to pray, put the sanctification of his father's name first and in his ministry Jesus also always put the sanctification of his father's name first. At John 12:28 (REB) Jesus states. "Father, glorify your name.' A voice came from heaven: 'I have glorified it, and I will glorify I again.'" Very evidently the glorifying of God's name is very important to both God and Jesus, and should be very important to those who claim to be Christians. But the problem is, if you ask most Christians what God's name is, they will say "Jesus." However Jesus did not come to here to honor himself, he always directed the praise to his father. His whole life was one of self sacrifice and obedient devotion to the doing of his father's will. So that raises the question; if God's name isn't Jesus, what is it? Answering this question isn't hard, but it is harder than it should be. For there has been a conspiracy to do away with the very name of God. Newer Bible translations generally omit God's name entirely from God's very own book. It is shocking even to think about it, God's Name erased from most translations of the Bible with most Christians today not even knowing what it is. The divine name is however still found in some Bibles. One place you can find it is in the old King James Bible at Psalms 83:18 "That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the Most High over all the earth." Jehovah is God's name in English, in Hebrew it is Yahweh, taken from the Hebrew tetragram YHWH. Ancient Hebrew was written using only constants, so it is not certain what the exact vowels where that went with YHWH. But it doesn't really matter for the English translation, for when translating a name it is common practice to use the most widely accepted form. Many names under go a dramatic change when translated. In going from Hebrew to English, "Y" becomes "J" and "W" becomes "V". So YHWH becomes JHVH.
Hence "Jehovah" is as close as we can hope to come to the proper pronunciation of the divine name in English. Plus the name Jehovah wins by default anyway being the most common and the oldest name used for God in English. The name Jehovah has long been accepted as God's name and is used in old Bibles, classic books and even many movie films. From "Pollyanna" to "The Last Crusade," Hollywood seems to have made the divine name more widely known than many modern Bible translations and most Christian religions have, with one obvious exception of course. Considering the fact that most religions have turned their back on Jehovah's name, one has to wonder if he has turned his back on them.
It is only fairly recently that Christian religions have forgotten God's name. Like a recent memory, traces of Jehovah's name are still found in the collective memory of Christendom. Old Bibles and song books still carry the name Jehovah and fragments of it are found in modern writings as well. The shortened form of Jehovah is "Jah" and is contained in the word "hallelujah" which means praise Jah or praise Jehovah. Many Bibles that have removed the name Jehovah, often still have hallelujah at Revelation 19:1. "Jah" is also part of many biblical names such as Elijah, Adonijah, Urijah, Jahleel and biblical place names like Jahaz. The reason the shortened form of the divine name was used as part of names, was that each name had a meaning, Elijah means "my god is Jehovah." You really don't have to dig very deep to find out that God's name is Jehovah, because those who would wish to bury it, have only had time to dig a shallow grave.
Failing to keep Jehovah's name buried, they have a second tactic, confusion. They point out that we don't know the exact pronunciation of God's name and thus many forms are possible, so we shouldn't use any. Their real motive of not wanting to have Jehovah's name known shows through their false reasoning. For as we pointed out earlier, when translating a name into another language, it is standard procedure to use the most widely known form. We know the constants in the name Jehovah are correct, and the vowels used fit in well with English pronunciation and the name is far more widely know than any other variation. As for other known forms of God's name, "Yahweh" comes in at a distant second place. Yahweh however is not a English name, it is a Hebrew name. Using the Hebrew name for God in English makes as much sense as using Yeshua (Hebrew) or Iesous (Greek) for Jesus in English. Perhaps some are uncomfortable with using the name of the living God, so if they must use it, they prefer not to even translate it, keeping it at a safe distance in another language. The true followers of Christ do not hesitate to use Jehovah's name and do their best to make it known. Those who do not use Jehovah's name betray their true motives in not being true followers of Jehovah's son Jesus Christ by having little interest in the sanctification of a name they avoid using, but was of the utmost importance to Jesus Christ. For think about, the Almighty is almighty, don't you think he would see to it that the most commonly used form of his name was the form he wanted to be used? The name Jehovah is the best English approximation of God's name and it apparently has the approval of Jehovah himself, since he could have caused things to have turned out differently if he had preferred a different pronunciation or spelling of his name.
Sincerely Yours; Wm. Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by arachnophilia, posted 11-18-2004 7:30 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by arachnophilia, posted 11-22-2004 10:47 PM wmscott has replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 164 (162366)
11-22-2004 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by arachnophilia
11-19-2004 1:08 AM


Re: Then leave notes for the old man.
quote:
Originally posted by Arachnophilia
i'm sort of hoping amlodhi in particular can show why the modern choice for pronounciation is what it is.
Hi Arachnophilia,
It doesn't look like you need my help. I agree that the pronunciation of "Jehovah" came about with the translation into English because of a misunderstanding of the reason for the vowel pointing of "יהוה" and by the character "J" (carrying the pronunciation "Y" in the Germanic languages) being misapplied with the introduction of the "J" sound into the English language.
Also, one additional instance of translational choices used to avoid repetition is the case of "adonai" and "YHWH" appearing together, i.e. אדני יהוה as found, for instance, in Amos 1:8.
Here, substituting the vowel points for "adonai" into the "YHWH" (and thus reading "adonai") would result in the repetitive phrase "adonai Adonai".
In this case then, the Masoretic scribes chose to point "YHWH" with the modified vowels of "Elohim" which resulted in the form: יֱהֹוִה . As in the cases above, the apparent pronunciation of this form would be something like "Ye-ho-wee". However (as you know), these vowel points were never intended to direct the pronunciation of "the Name" but only to indicate that "Elohim" should be read here instead of "the Name", (i.e., the phrase should be read "adonai Elohim" and not "adonai Yehowee".
Your OP is excellent, and while I do understand wmscott's plea to convention, IMO you are correct that this convention has its basis in misunderstanding and error.
Amlodhi
This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 11-22-2004 02:11 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 11-19-2004 1:08 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by arachnophilia, posted 11-22-2004 10:31 PM Amlodhi has not replied
 Message 145 by DeclinetoState, posted 03-24-2006 12:58 PM Amlodhi has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024