It seems the christians here are selling snake oil

I have noticed that Peter has often asked the admin to close threads he was clearly losing debates inTC and TB constantly dodge difficult questions or admit they don't have answers to them YET proceed to teach their refuted mantra and seek to provide evidence for it regardless of the impossibilities presented to them.Why do christians avoid the threads they have clearly lost in? It is as if they are dodging accepting the consequences of these contradcitions.IE Jesus' genealogy, 120 years of man, How did Judas die etcIf God's word has been refuted why do they continue to believe in it?When are they going to answer these hard questions?Why does Fortenberry keep avoiding responding to me about the impossibilities of Jesus' davidic lineage?Seriously christians why do you even bother when you don't appear to have a leg to stand on?

Dear Ion,I was expecting a lot of resistance. It is not you who is resisting. It is the objector of Truth.You only confirm what I expect.If you have anything substantial to add, please be my guest and re-open the threads,I will participate.best wishes,Peter"Losing ground, S....?"

Dear Ion,By the way,You are also invited to save the molecular common descent argument from falling. Maybe you can give Dr Page a hand. He needs it.Best wishes,Peter

Peter he has answered everyone of your questions. Have you answered all of his?

what is your point? You never asnwered some of the basic questions presented to you by the peanut gallery: If evolution is ordered by whom is it ordered? God?These are a damn good question. Even if it were order so what? How do you know it wasn't order by the alien frogs from the Quagmar galaxy? What evidence have you for divine intervention from God? Can you address apparent doctrinal and prophet contradictions within the bible that refute its divine guidance?

I need not add anything to those threads. The point was made.

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I have noticed that Peter has often asked the admin to close threads he was clearly losing debates in

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For the record, there are 3 closed Peter Borger topics (all in the "Evolution" forum).1)molecular genetic proof against random mutation(1)
2) More non-random evolution
3) scientific end of evolution theory (2)I haven't (at least recently) done any heavy analysis to why these topics were closed. One possible reason is that the discussion had wandered off topic. Another possible reason (and I suspect this may be the real one) is to consolidate the discussion into a lesser number of topics, rather than having redundant discussions in several topics.In all, I don't really think it is a matter of Peter Borger trying to dodge discussion. But hey, I may be wrong.AdminnemooseusAdded by edit - The topics can be re-opened.------------------
{mnmoose@lakenet.com}[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 01-18-2003]

christians selling snake oil?yes, and the scoffers are using monopoly money :-)I have started two of the threads you mention. the one on Judas has not been refuted and I have provided a reference from classical writing supporting my claim. I can provide additional evidence, but there seems no point at the moment.I have provided a simple solution to the apparent problems of matthews geneology that requires one word to be transalted as father rather than husband. In every other instsnce (and there are a few) the Aramaic word "gowra" is used throughout matthew it is in the sesne of a father.yes, there have been some other ideas suggested (all more complicated and less parsimoniuos IMO), but to say that this means my post has been "refuted" draws a long bow...don't you think?Now, of course I may be wrong, but can you show me where?all the best

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I have started two of the threads you mention. the one on Judas has not been refuted and I have provided a reference from classical writing supporting my claim. I can provide additional evidence, but there seems no point at the moment.

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actually you didn't. THe bible claims he didn't multiple ways and what you said was this:"I do not believe so. I believe the verse in matthew does not speak of Judas's death but rather that he was "choked with grief". It would be similar to someone today "hanging their head in shame"."Of course this is absolute nonsense judge as it fails to explain the differences in:"Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out"and"So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself."You claim this is not a contradiction?

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I have provided a simple solution to the apparent problems of matthews geneology that requires one word to be transalted as father rather than husband.

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actually that doesn't work out either as a woman can't provide davidic lineage. sorry. This is not a solution in the light of said fact. Therefore they wouldn't have intended you to tranlate that as father. Perhaps you should have read through John's replies more thoroughly.

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In every other instsnce (and there are a few) the Aramaic word "gowra" is used throughout matthew it is in the sesne of a father.

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Again this is a presupposition based on the assumption woman could cary on lineage. This is in fact not so.

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yes, there have been some other ideas suggested (all more complicated and less parsimoniuos IMO), but to say that this means my post has been "refuted" draws a long bow...don't you think?

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No of course it doesn't. The reason why that is so is do to the fact your position isn't biblically founded. It doesn't make a difference how many possibilities you present if they are infact all wrong.Easily.You are opperating on the invalid assumption this one verse says joseph is the father of Mary and the father of Jesus. This is a ridiculous argument of semantics and here is why:1. The bible translators for centuries have translated this Joseph to be the husband of mary assuming that this Joseph was the Joseph mentioned in the stories. Hell why not? As there is no other Joseph mentioned as Mary's father anywhere else in the bible (not even a refernce to a mother for that matter).2. Women can't provide lineage. This is clearly set axiom by the history of the bible and tradition of the jewish people.3. Prophecies where made to david and the jews that a savior would come from the seed of david. Inorder for that to happen a man must contribute the seed.4. Contrary to christian belief (and Matthew's teachings) Micah 5:2 doesn't speak of Jesus being born in Bethlehem!2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans [2] of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins [3] are from of old,
from ancient times. [4] "No where does it say land of bethlehem!more later

"I do not believe so. I believe the verse in matthew does not speak of Judas's death but rather that he was "choked with grief". It would be similar to someone today "hanging their head in shame"."The more i read this the more absurd it sounds.You believe this is what it is saying? so really you don't have anything of substance do you? Just a mere suggestion. What evidence do you have for this to substantiate this claim?Hmmm what does the heading of the chapter say in the NIV?Judas Hangs Himselfapparently the writters of the NIV also feel this was Judas' suicide along with the vast majority of christian literature.who witnessed all of this ?
How do you fall headlong so your guts come out?
Judas threw his money down in the temple, what did he buy Potter's field with?"5So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
6The chief priests picked up the coins and said, 'It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.' They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."interesting...what do Acts say?"18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)"Really? You mean that same money he threw down at the temple that the preists took and used to by the field he hung himself in?[This message has been edited by iconoclast2440, 01-19-2003]

Hi iconoclast....rather than deal with your post here I might as well respond on "did Judas die twice post", and the "geneology post", to keep the information in one place.all the best

Dear Admin,Thanks for your assistance.quote:
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I have noticed that Peter has often asked the admin to close threads he was clearly losing debates in
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------For the record, there are 3 closed Peter Borger topics (all in the "Evolution" forum).1)molecular genetic proof against random mutation(1)
2) More non-random evolution
3) scientific end of evolution theory (2)I haven't (at least recently) done any heavy analysis to why these topics were closed.PB: They were closed because I wanted them to. Consolidation of the GUToB will be carried out in the open threads.One possible reason is that the discussion had wandered off topic.PB: And because of lack of response for more than a month. And because more scientific proof of NRM have been scientifically demonstrated in Dr Caporale's thread. I am scientifically backed up. As claimed all the time and should now be acknowledges bu everybody (except atheists, of course, but that's the usual denial).Another possible reason (and I suspect this may be the real one) is to consolidate the discussion into a lesser number of topics, rather than having redundant discussions in several topics.PB: Exactly.In all, I don't really think it is a matter of Peter Borger trying to dodge discussion. But hey, I may be wrong.PB: Why would I dodge discussion that I am winning?AdminnemooseusAdded by edit - The topics can be re-opened.PB: Yeah, why not? It's a hot topic.best wishes,
Peter

"TC and TB constantly dodge difficult questions or admit they don't have answers to them"
--You say this as if it is a bad thing? How's about you go ask a mainstream scientist in the early 1900's about the driving mechanism for plate tectonics, they will give you no answer. I as well as TB are not embarrassed to admit that there are many difficulties within our perspective. I do not dodge questions which I don't have answers to with any pompous attitude. I also don't itterate refuted mantra.. Have I even done any discussions with you yet? Your attack on Christians in general is pretty sophomoric as well..------------------[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 01-19-2003]

dear Ion,I: Peter he has answered everyone of your questions. Have you answered all of his?PB: If all questions had been answered this board wasn't around.Best wishes,
Peter

Dear ion,Ion: These are a damn good question. Even if it were order so what? How do you know it wasn't order by the alien frogs from the Quagmar galaxy?PB: That will the next lie.Best wishes,
Peter