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Author Topic:   To "Believe in God/Jesus" Means
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 1 of 78 (194650)
03-26-2005 10:36 AM


I would like to seriously discuss the phrase "believe in" as it is used (and when it was used) in the Christian Bible concerning God and Jesus and how it is used in the world today concerning living persons.
From Strong's
Pisteuo = Believe: to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
When we refer to "believing in" living individuals we aren't saying that we believe they exist.
For example, when I say I believe in my husband, I'm not saying I believe he exists. I'm saying I am confident that he is capable of accomplishing a certain task or situation at hand.
If I believe in a politician's foreign policy, I'm not saying I believe it exists, but that I trust what the policy says.
In these cases we have seen the person perform or have read the documents and trust in what we experience and understand. We can clearly communicate our knowledge or experience to others as to why we trust. Others can also see and hear what we did.
Numbers 14:11
The LORD said to Moses, "How long will this people spurn Me? And how long will they not believe in Me, despite all the signs which I have performed in their midst?
This author shows that the people supposedly had signs to experience and to assist them in making their decision.
Mark 1:14-15
Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."
Here the author shows that the people were able to see Jesus and hear the good news that he preached, which was supposedly that the Kingdom of God was at hand. They were dealing with a physical person.
The Books of Mark, Matthew, and Luke do not present the need to "believe in" what Jesus was, but what he said concerning the coming of the Kingdom of God.
The later Book of John, OTOH, very heavily stresses belief in the name and what Jesus supposedly was, but not necessarily in the good news that Jesus preached.
Today when someone asks, "Do you believe in God or Jesus?" the assumption is do I believe that they exist now. It is asked in the same way that people ask do you believe in fairies or the Easter Bunny. If these things existed outside of the imaginations and books that housed them, then we wouldn't need to believe, we would see them and know they were there. No one asks "Do you believe in cars?"
When I searched for what "believing in" God means today I find the following:
To believe in God means:
to believe we are under Him, responsible to Him, accountable to Him.
to accept that God exists.
to realize that He has spoken.
to see that life has a meaning.
to believe that He is all-powerful and that we are His subjects.
to experience real happiness and joy.
to eliminate all forms of violence and exploitation from human society.
Believing in God means:
our lives and actions must reflect His existence.
believing that life is basically good and worth living.
To believe in Jesus means:
you accept not only what Jesus taught but also what He claimed about Himself.
to trust our life to him.
walking in His footsteps and following His example.
Obviously tradition has added quite a bit to what "believe in" means.
The people of the Bible supposedly had physical evidence from which to make their decision.
Today we are expected to trust without it.
What did the authors of the Bible actually ask us to believe in and how is that different than what we are asked to believe in today?
Edited to change last question.
This message has been edited by purpledawn, 03-27-2005 07:38 AM

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 03-26-2005 10:37 AM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 3 by unjailed, posted 03-26-2005 5:36 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 73 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-10-2006 9:25 PM purpledawn has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 78 (194651)
03-26-2005 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
03-26-2005 10:36 AM


Moved here by AdminJar
from Proposed New Topics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 03-26-2005 10:36 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
unjailed
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 78 (194721)
03-26-2005 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
03-26-2005 10:36 AM


I suggest that it's both. Believing in $DIETY means both that you have faith in his or her existance and his or her ability to accomplish what your faith states they can accomplish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 03-26-2005 10:36 AM purpledawn has replied

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 4 of 78 (194744)
03-26-2005 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by unjailed
03-26-2005 5:36 PM


Dual Meaning
quote:
Believing in $DIETY means both that you have faith in his or her existance and his or her ability to accomplish what your faith states they can accomplish.
Where does the Christian Bible support this dual meaning?
OP
I would like to seriously discuss the phrase "believe in" as it is used (and when it was used) in the Christian Bible concerning God and Jesus and how it is used in the world today concerning living persons.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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 Message 3 by unjailed, posted 03-26-2005 5:36 PM unjailed has not replied

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 Message 5 by jar, posted 03-26-2005 11:21 PM purpledawn has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 78 (194755)
03-26-2005 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by purpledawn
03-26-2005 9:00 PM


Re: Dual Meaning
I'm still not sure I understand your question. In an earlier post you contrasted the rendering in Matthew, Mark and Luke with those in John. You also seemed to be contrasting the use of the term belief as it might be used today and as it is reflected in the Gospels.
Can you expand a little on what you see as being different or where you are having trouble with the usage?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by purpledawn, posted 03-26-2005 9:00 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by purpledawn, posted 03-27-2005 7:33 AM jar has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 6 of 78 (194791)
03-27-2005 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
03-26-2005 11:21 PM


Re: Dual Meaning
Today the simple question, "Do you believe in God?" carries the question of "Do you believe he exists?" period, which is the same way we ask about things we know don't exist.
Was Jesus teaching his students to believe that God existed?
Was God upset in the OT because people didn't believe he existed or because they didn't believe he was the most powerful God because they followed other Gods?
The people in the Bible were supposedly given physical evidence of God's power and therefore something to believe in (trust).
As my list in the OP shows, today the term to "believe in" God carries whatever meaning the religion wishes it to carry; and as we have seen within this forum, people are deemed not to believe in God or to have believed in God because they didn't believe a particular tenet of religion.
What did the authors of the Bible actually ask us to believe in and how is that different than what we are asked to believe in today?
I guess that should have been my final question in the OP, but unfortunately it didn't form in my mind at the time. I think I will edit it.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 03-26-2005 11:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 03-27-2005 2:37 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 8 by jar, posted 03-27-2005 4:13 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 78 (194831)
03-27-2005 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by purpledawn
03-27-2005 7:33 AM


Re: Dual Meaning
PD writes:
Today the simple question, "Do you believe in God?" carries the question of "Do you believe he exists?" period, which is the same way we ask about things we know don't exist.
The point is, human nature by definition will deny the existance of God.
NIV writes:
Jude 17-19= But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
Jesus also reminded "doubting Thomas" of the blessings that people who do not see and yet believe will have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by purpledawn, posted 03-27-2005 7:33 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 78 (194851)
03-27-2005 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by purpledawn
03-27-2005 7:33 AM


Re: Dual Meaning
Bunch of really good questions. I'll try to deal with each as best I can but please bop me over the head if I'm misunderstanding.
Was Jesus teaching his students to believe that God existed?
I don't think so. First, at in that day and time I would imagine that almost everyone believed in a GOD or GODs. For the general man in the alleyway, most everything was out of his control and in the hands of a GOD. So I don't think the issue of GOD's existence or non-existence was the pertinent. That much was a given.
Was God upset in the OT because people didn't believe he existed or because they didn't believe he was the most powerful God because they followed other Gods?
WoW! I'd say neither, the former, the later and both. LOL
The nature of GOD varies greatly throughout the OT depending on the period, the culture, the state of nationhood, the politics, the surrounding cultures, the moral or purpose of the particular passage or text. For example in Exodus alone we see a whole host of different GODs. They range from a kindly concerned father figure looking out for his children to a capricious, inconsistent, petulant child, to only one of many GODs trying to see who has the biggest wanger to a rapacious vengeful tyrant.
What did the authors of the Bible actually ask us to believe in and how is that different than what we are asked to believe in today?
Again, I believe that depends on a couple things. First, it is very difficult for us to even think in the manner (although sometimes I question this myself) of the folk from 2000 years, 4000 years, or even further back in time. We know what causes lightning. We know what causes desease. We know what causes earthquakes. As hard as we might try, we will never have the same point of view as someone from 2-4000 years ago.
The books of the Bible were written to people of the day. When someone wrote the first draft of Exodus I doubt that he or she wondered how folk 2000 years in the future would understand it. It was for the immediate audience.
Let me try to move on to what you are being asked to believe in today. I have to begin by telling you right off, this is only what I believe in and I will NOT ask you to believe in any of it.
IMHO what is at issue today is pretty simple. Christians believe that GOD does exist, that he exists today, that he is active today, that he has charged us with certain goals related to our behavior and that after death there will be some continuation in an inspecified format.
That is often taken and compared to a belief in Santa, the Tooth Fairy or TIPU. Those are all valid comparisons. For a non-believer there is absolutely no difference between the beliefs of a Christian and a follower of TIPU.
When challenged like that many Christians get upset and say the comparison is not valid, but IMHO it's very true. There is little more to support my beliefs than those of the TIPU.
But I believe in GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by purpledawn, posted 03-27-2005 7:33 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by purpledawn, posted 03-27-2005 8:24 PM jar has replied
 Message 13 by purpledawn, posted 03-28-2005 5:07 AM jar has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 9 of 78 (194869)
03-27-2005 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
03-27-2005 2:37 PM


Re: Dual Meaning
quote:
human nature by definition will deny the existance of God
What is the definition of human nature?
quote:
In the last times there will be scoffers
What were they scoffing at in the second century when the author wrote Jude?
quote:
Jesus also reminded "doubting Thomas" of the blessings that people who do not see and yet believe will have.
The doubting Thomas episode takes place in the Book of John, which I mentioned in the OP stressed that we "believe in" the name or who Jesus was without physical evidence.
Why the switch?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 03-27-2005 2:37 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 03-28-2005 1:35 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 10 of 78 (194871)
03-27-2005 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
03-27-2005 4:13 PM


I Believe In God
I have to get off the computer right now and will address the upper portion of your post later, but wanted to ask a question concerning your last statement.
quote:
But I believe in GOD
So you believe that he exists and you believe in his abilities, correct?
What abilities have you witnessed and what causes you to trust them?
Think of it as if you were recommending him for a job.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 03-27-2005 4:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 03-27-2005 8:49 PM purpledawn has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 78 (194875)
03-27-2005 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by purpledawn
03-27-2005 8:24 PM


Re: I Believe In God
Think of it as if you were recommending him for a job
I'm pretty sure he's not looking for one right now. LOL
So you believe that he exists and you believe in his abilities, correct?
Yes. Completely.
What abilities have you witnessed and what causes you to trust them?
I guess I'd start with the Universe itself. I find the system, the laws, the consistency, the logic and the sheer beauty of everything to be a pretty good argument. I do believe in first causes and think that is GOD. If we someday find the universe is the result of brane collisions my reaction would be, "So that's how he did it!"
After that we move to a more personal level. I talk with GOD constantly. He answers in a small quite voice and through minor incidents. It's nothing consuming or awesome, more like the friend you know you can call regardless of the time of night.
I trust such incidents because over my lifetime they have always been accurate and helpful.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by purpledawn, posted 03-27-2005 8:24 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 78 (194888)
03-28-2005 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by purpledawn
03-27-2005 8:16 PM


The evidence was alive!
The doubting Thomas episode takes place in the Book of John, which I mentioned in the OP stressed that we "believe in" the name or who Jesus was without physical evidence.
What do you mean? The fact that Jesus was alive and had performed many miracles is evidence enough. His resurrection was physical evidence. That is why Thomas was tripping.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by purpledawn, posted 03-27-2005 8:16 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 13 of 78 (194897)
03-28-2005 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
03-27-2005 4:13 PM


Authors of the OT
jar,
quote:
The nature of GOD varies greatly throughout the OT depending on the period, the culture, the state of nationhood, the politics, the surrounding cultures, the moral or purpose of the particular passage or text.
quote:
The books of the Bible were written to people of the day.
I think you have read enough of my posts to know that I understand these statements.
In the OT the authors don't seem to be presenting that God is trying to prove his existence to humans. The emphasis is on God trying to show that he is Top God. Have you read anywhere in the OT where God is trying to establish his existence with mankind?
quote:
Christians believe that GOD does exist, that he exists today, that he is active today, that he has charged us with certain goals related to our behavior and that after death there will be some continuation in an inspecified format.
Then they shouldn't act as though he doesn't exist.
If I went to a secluded tribe that has never seen what we call civilization and wanted to tell them about cars, I would not ask them do you believe in cars? I would show them a photo of a car, tell them how it works and what it is used for. Eventually, I could show them a real car. Until they see the actual car they can only believe what I tell them. So either they trust me or they don't.
All we have of the Christian God is what the religious present. So we either believe what they say or we don't.
Since I grew up in the church, I accepted what was being said as true. Then I studied the Bible and listened closely. I came to the conclusion that what they told me was not true. I no longer believe what the tenets of religion claim.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 03-27-2005 4:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 03-28-2005 8:34 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 14 of 78 (194900)
03-28-2005 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
03-27-2005 8:49 PM


Re: I Believe In God
quote:
I guess I'd start with the Universe itself.
But you didn't see God create the universe, unless of course you are older than dirt.
quote:
After that we move to a more personal level. I talk with GOD constantly.
Which means you can't introduce me to God and the three of us have a nice conversation.
I would have to believe what you tell me. So if your behavior or actions do not support what you are telling me, then I won't believe what you tell me about your God, because all I can experience is you and not what is in your head.
Who am I actually trusting or mistrusting? You or God?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 03-27-2005 8:49 PM jar has replied

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 Message 17 by jar, posted 03-28-2005 8:42 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 15 of 78 (194901)
03-28-2005 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
03-28-2005 1:35 AM


Re: The evidence was alive!
quote:
The fact that Jesus was alive and had performed many miracles is evidence enough. His resurrection was physical evidence. That is why Thomas was tripping.
I understand what the story was about, but the evidence was not alive at the time the Book of John was written.
This discussion is about what the authors presented to their audience, which means we are dealing with the timeframe in which the books were written and who their actual audience was.
If this is a stumbling block for you, I suggest you not continue in this discussion.
If you do wish to continue in this discussion then answer the questions I asked in Message 9.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 03-28-2005 1:35 AM Phat has not replied

  
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