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Author Topic:   Jericho and Ai: Fictional history in the Book of Joshua
Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 1 of 46 (110412)
05-25-2004 12:32 PM


I would be very interested if anyone, biblical inerrantist or not, could explain why the information contained in Joshua is wholly contradicted by the available archaeological data.
According to the Bible, the first city that the Israelites came across was Jericho (Josh 2:1). After invading the city, and slaughtering every living thing in it, the Israelites then focussed their attention on Ai, a city ten miles from Jericho.
Their first attempt to conquer the city failed, a setback later revealed to be the consequence of Achan’s theft of some treasure that had been devoted to Yahweh. However, after Achan and his family had been killed, God gave his blessing and Joshua’s armies were successful in their second attempt at conquering Ai.
Both of these cities should then show signs of destruction at around the same time in the archaeological record. For example, Jericho’s walls (Josh. 6:20) and Ai’s burning (Josh. 8:19-21) should have left identifiable traces of destruction within a fairly short period of time of each other. But the archaeological data tells a completely different story.
I do not wish to introduce reams and reams of archaeological data at this moment in time, this is just the opening post, so I have simplified the outline of the argument and will provide ample evidence for any conclusion if requested.
Jericho has been identified as Tel es-Sultan and during the 1930’s John Garstang excavated the city and concluded that there was indeed evidence of ‘collapsed mudbrick walls under the ruins of houses that he identified as evidence of the destruction by the Isarelites’ (Calloway, Joseph A., 1988 The Settlement in Canaan in Ancient Israel: A Short History from Abraham to the Roman Destruction of the Temple . Shanks H (ed), Prentice- Hall, Washington. p.61
From 1952 — 58 Kathleen Kenyon extensively excavated Jericho and using improved techniques she discovered that Garstang’s wall, which he dated to c. 1400 BCE, actually dated to around 2300 BCE (Calloway p.62). Kenyon had actually discovered many instances of collapsed walls dating from 3200 — 2300 BCE, she put this mainly down to earthquakes activity in the region.
Kenyon also found evidence of a city wall, which she dated to c. 1560 BCE. But it can be stated categorically that Jericho was unoccupied and ‘unwalled’ after c. 1560 BCE, until c 1200 BCE, therefore, Joshua’s conquest has to be prior to 1560 BCE.
There has been, and no doubt will be, many people who can fit a pre 1560 BCE conquest into the biblical and archaeological data, whether they have convincing arguments or not has no bearing on my argument here.
What I am arguing here is that if Jericho had to be conquered pre 1560 BCE the for the biblical account of the Conquest of Canaan to be accurate, then Ai has to show traces of destruction at around the same time.
A former apprentice of William Albrights, Judith Marquet-Krause, excavated Ai (et-Tell) from 1933-35 and she concluded that Ai was unoccupied between 2400 BCE and c. 1200 BCE. Joseph Calloway led nine seasons of extensive excavations at Ai between 1964-76 and essentially confirmed what Marquet-Krause had earlier said. Calloway added that there was no walled city at Ai after c. 2400 BCE, and the only evidence of any occupation after this date was of a small-unfortified village dating from 1200 BCE until the site was abandoned around 1050BCE.
If we also accept that almost every scholar involved in the debate over the origins of Ancient Israel declares that the conquest would be in the mid to late 13th century BCE, then neither Jericho nor Ai was inhabited.
The question is: how can the Israelites have conquered Jericho, then marched on to Ai, ten miles away, and conquer it as well if Ai was not occupied at the same time as Jericho?
Brian.

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Message 2 of 46 (110416)
05-25-2004 12:50 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Cold Foreign Object 
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Message 3 of 46 (110504)
05-25-2004 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
05-25-2004 12:32 PM


Hi Brian !
Brian quote:
______________________________________________________________________
From 1952 — 58 Kathleen Kenyon extensively excavated Jericho and using improved techniques she discovered that Garstang’s wall, which he dated to c. 1400 BCE, actually dated to around 2300 BCE (Calloway p.62)
______________________________________________________________________
Would you mind substantiating the "improved techniques" that tip the scales in favor of Kenyon's date ?

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Cold Foreign Object 
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Message 4 of 46 (110525)
05-25-2004 10:34 PM


From: Page not found - Apologetics Press
Conquest of Canaan
Second, biblical and archaeological dates of some historical events are in conflict. A classic example of this chronological tension is the conquest of Canaan. The Bible indicates that 480 years transpired between the exodus and the fourth year of Solomon’s reign (1 Kings 6:1). We can date his reign with reasonable confidence at 971-931 B.C., which places the date of his fourth regnal year at 967 B.C. This would place the date of the exodus at 1447 B.C. Allowing for the 40 years of wilderness wandering prior to the Israelites’ invasion of Canaan, the initial stages of the conquest occurred around 1407 B.C.
However, archaeologists generally believe that the Israelites entered Canaan about 1230-1220 B.C., nearly 200 years later than the biblical date (Bimson, 1987, 13[5]:40-42). Again, excavations at Jericho, the first fortified city conquered by the Israelites (Joshua 2-6), are at the heart of this controversy. John Garstang was the first to employ modern pottery chronology to explore this biblical site. He uncovered a residential area in the southeast slope of the tell, which he called City IV. This city had been destroyed by a violent conflagration. Based on pottery in the destruction debris, and other artifacts in the nearby cemetery, he associated City IV with the first city Israel defeated in the conquest. Garstang dated this destruction level to the late 15th or early 14th century B.C., and he believed that the invading Israelites caused the destruction, in harmony with the biblical record (Joshua 6:24; Wood, 1987, p. 7).
Kathleen Kenyon critiqued Garstang’s work in 1951, and did additional excavation at this site during 1952-1958. Kenyon disagreed with Garstang’s date of the destruction level, and placed it at c. 1550 B.C., many years before the biblical date of the conquest. She further contended that in 1400 B.C. there was no fortified city for Joshua’s army to conquer, and that the archaeological evidence does not agree with the biblical description of a large-scale military incursion contemporary with the destruction of Jericho (Kenyon, 1957b, p. 259). Kenyon based her conclusions largely upon the ABSENCE of pottery typically used around 1400 B.C.
Subsequently, scholars have critiqued Kenyon’s work and have vindicated the conclusions of Garstang, and, by implication, the biblical chronology (Wood, 1990; Livingston, 1988; see also Jackson, 1990). Kenyon’s conclusions, however, caused Jericho to become the classic example of the difficulties with correlating the biblical account of the conquest with the archaeological record. Pottery stands at the center of the interpretive and dating discrepancies of the conquest. END LINK EXCERPT
Hi Brian:
From the above excerpt:
"Kenyon based her conclusions largely upon the ABSENCE of pottery typically used around 1400 B.C."
How does absence negate Garstang's conclusions ? Why should it ?
Why should the second wave of archaeology be allowed to dismiss the first goers ?
From the same link:
These statements represent the conflicting messages that characterize the field of archaeology. In Albright’s era, archaeologists’ interpretations of field excavations ordinarily corroborated biblical information. It was common for prominent archaeologists such as Nelson Glueck to confidently affirm: ...no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference (1959, p. 31).
Prior to the 1970s, interpretations of archaeological explorations generally heightened the Bible’s credibility (Davis, 1993, 19[2]:54-59). Since then, however, the amiable relationship between archaeology and the Bible has deteriorated dramatically. It is commonplace for the new generation of archaeologists to spurn the historical credibility of the biblical narrative (see Dever, 1990, 16[3]:52-62). END LINK EXCERPT
Hence, an "a priori" anti-supernatural bias pursued. The first wave was innocent and not contaminated with refutation objectives.
I only offer this to evidence my previous topic claim of the difficulties Biblical claims encounter when the actions of Satan are factored in. I am NOT saying persons are possessed. I am only pointing out what the Bible has always claimed.

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Brian, posted 05-27-2004 5:42 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 5 of 46 (110830)
05-27-2004 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Cold Foreign Object
05-25-2004 10:34 PM


Hi WT, nice to hear from you again.
Would you mind substantiating the "improved techniques" that tip the scales in favor of Kenyon's date ?
The greatest improvement was her new technique that controls the removal of layers from ancient tells. She excavated from bedrock right through to the top of the mound and dated occupation at the site to go back to 9000 BCE.
The technique she developed caused a revolution on archaeological methodology, if you want to read more about it, it is called the ‘Wheeler-Kenyon’ method.
She also used radiocarbon 14c to date wood, grains, and other organic remains, as well as using comparative artefactual studies.
Garstang had used the old method of ‘trenching’, which was inferior and caused a great deal of damage to a site.
How does absence negate Garstang's conclusions ? Why should it ?
Pottery was a major part of near eastern life. When pottery is referred to by archaeologists it includes every clay/ceramic artefact such as cooking pots, storage jars, jugs, water jars, burial urn even figurines and other ornamental items, pot sherds (ostraca) were even written on as they were easier to get hold of than papyrus. You can see it was such a large part of everyday life that not to find any associated with a particular era casts doubts on occupation. Every level of occupation yields pottery samples as it was such a large part of everyday life, but the absence of LBA pottery wasn’t the only argument that Kenyon used.
Why should the second wave of archaeology be allowed to dismiss the first goers ?
Scientific techniques usually improve over time, and you also have the added advantage of having more artefacts from other excavations for comparative studies. Kenyon’s new method was far superior to the trenching of earlier archaeologists.
From the same link:
These statements represent the conflicting messages that characterize the field of archaeology. In Albright’s era, archaeologists’ interpretations of field excavations ordinarily corroborated biblical information. It was common for prominent archaeologists such as Nelson Glueck to confidently affirm: ...no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference (1959, p. 31).
This is a great example of why these ‘biblical archaeologists’ finds ‘corroborated’ biblical information, it only corroborated it because they reinterpreted the biblical text to fit the evidence. Glueck’s quote is all over the Net, despite the fact that he retracted it in the revised edition of his book entitled The River Jordan. I haven’t been able to get a copy of Glueck’s book, but Moorey includes a small section on Glueck’s quote:
When Glueck claimed that ‘it may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference’, Finkelstein simply cited the archaeological problems at Jericho. . The charge that biblical archaeologists could be neither objective nor properly scientific was one that Wright was thereafter to wrestle with to the end of his life in 1974, whilst Glueck in the revised edition of ‘The River Jordan (1968) inserted a fresh section specifically rejecting any idea of ‘archaeological proofs’ of the Bible. {Moorey, P R S. 1991 A Century of Biblical Archaeology The Lutterworth Press, Cambridge.
A good example of this reinterpreting the Bible to fit the archaeological evidence can be found in Gueck’s best known work, the work done in the region of Edom and Moab. Now remember that the Bible claims a c. 1446 BCE date for the Exodus, and remember how the Israelites had some trouble with the Edomites and the Moablites, well Glueck concluded that the Israelites could not have met the Edomites or the Moabites as there was no Edomite or Moabites to meet before the 13th century BCE.
From Glueck’s article in BASOR 55 (1934) ‘Explorations in eastern Palestine and the Negeb. page 16:
’Had the Exodus through southern Transjordan taken place before the thirteenth century BC, the Israelites would have found neither Edomites and Moabites who would have given or withheld permission to traverse their territories’.
I haven’t read Glueck’s opinion of the dating of Jericho, but since he placed the Exodus in the 13th century BCE then it has to be later than this date.
It is interesting that the author of this essay cited a quote from an archaeologist that he believes supports the reliability of the biblical record, he then cites 1 Kings 6:1 that claims a 1447 BCE Exodus and a 1407 conquest, yet the archaeolgist he quotes believed that the Conquest was at least 150 years after the Bible claims it was. I do not think that the author has done his homework very well.
ANother example of this author's poor grasp of the subject can be found in this statement:
Subsequently, scholars have critiqued Kenyon’s work and have vindicated the conclusions of Garstang, and, by implication, the biblical chronology.
He cites Bryant Wood's Did the Israelites Conquer Jericho?A New Look at the Archaeological Evidence, Biblical Archaeology Review, 16[2]:45-57, March/April, as a scholar who has vindicated the conclusions of Garstang.
If I inform you WT that Wood is an ultra-fundamentalist Christian then you know to be extra careful when examining his claims. Wood's work was ripped to shreds after it was published because of his very poor use of the sources and his amateur approach. He is editor of the magazine 'Bible and Spade' you can guess how objective he is. But here is some proof of Wood's embarrassing claims.
From James Weinstein Exodus and Archaeological Reality in Exodus: The Egyptian Evidence Frerichs and Lesko (eds), Eisenbrauns, Winona Lake. pp.87-103.
The effort by some scholars to transfer the date of the Exodus from the 13th century BC back to the late 15th century is even more inupportable on archaeological grounds. This earlier date maintains biblical linkage to the Exodus by relating the alleged event to the reference in 1 Kings 6 to the Exodus haveing taken place 480 years prior to the start of the construction of the Solomonic Temple in Jerusalem. Recent champions of this theory include John Bimson and Bryant Wood. Bimson's efforts to date the destructions of Middle Bronze Age towns to the late 15th century BC are flawed by a host of Egyptological, stratigraphic and chronological problems, and to date, no Syro-Palestinian archaeologists or Egyptologists have accepted his chronological and historical analysis of the data. As for Wood, his argument is based on a redating of the destruction at Jericho from the 16th century BC to the end of the 15th century BC and suffers from a number of serious deficiencies in the interpretation of the archaeological and radiocarbin evidence.
Weistein highlights specific problems with Wood's claims:
The alleged evidence for the redating that Wood relies on includes the pottery associated with the 'Middle Bronze Age' destruction debris, a single radiocarbon date (BM-1790) from the destruction, and the presence of a cartouche plaque of Tuthmosis III, and a scarab of Hatshepsut in tomb 5 of Garstang's earlier excavations at the site.
An unfortunate flaw in Wood's argumentis in his use of a radiocarbon assay that the British Museum laboratoryhad already identified as being part of a large series of systematically defective dates. The revised radiocarbon age for this sample is 220 years earlier than the one cited in the original excavation report and used by Wood, and, when calibrated and turned into a calendrical date, is completely consistent with a traditional dating for the Middle Bronze II remains at Jericho. In any event, it is unacceptable to employ a single radiocarbon assay, without even taking into account the date's standard deviation, for the precise dating of an archaeological event.
A second major problem is Wood's failure to understand that the presence of a few royal-name seals in a single tomb is hardly adequate evidence to postulate a significant and continuous occupation on the mound itself in the 15th century BC. His view that the context of the Hatshepsut scarab should be contemporary with that of the pharaoh's reign because a scarab containing her name would not be kept as an heirloom is incorrect. There are at least two other scarabs from Palestine that name Hatshepsut, one comes from a 13th century BC level at Beth-Shan, the other may have been a surface find at Tel Yitzhaqi.
In any event, the recent publication of a series of high-precision radiocarbon dates of short-lived samples from the MB IIC destruction phase (H.J. Bruins and J. van der Plicht, 'The Exodus Enigma', Nature 382 (1996) pp 213-214) renders the argumnet moot. These assays consistently and strongly support a 16th century BC date for the end of the MB BC Jericho and cannot be reconciled with a late 15th century BC destruction.
Wood's researched is taitned by his extreme fundamentalism,and is often embarrassing. Christiananswers.net have a lot of his work on their site, you should read some of it, it is hilarious. But just like any other fundy, truth is not high on his list of priorities.
Hence, an "a priori" anti-supernatural bias pursued. The first wave was innocent and not contaminated with refutation objectives.
The first wave was not innocent, the first wave was extremely biased towards the Bible. This is what the whole debate centres on, the ‘archaeologists’ of the pre 70’s era interpreted every find by comparing it to the biblical text, they never examined any artefact independent of the Bible. Also, if you want to use the tumbling of Jericho’s walls as a supernatural event, then this would still have to leave evidence somewhere, but there is none.
Finally, regardless of the date for Jericho in this cited essay, it still doesn’t tackle the problem of Ai.
Catch you later,
Brian.
This message has been edited by Brian, 05-27-2004 05:59 AM

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Cold Foreign Object 
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Message 6 of 46 (112111)
06-01-2004 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Brian
05-27-2004 5:42 AM


Hi Brian !
I know you are very busy as I am too. Remember, the lack of timely reponses has nothing to do with the validity and availability of evidence. (except in my case )
Who wrote Joshua ?
If the author of Joshua was Joshua then I think you need to offer at least some type of explanatory rationale as to why he "fictionalized" the Conquest ? I write this only because of the topic title chosen. To offer evidence backing the title is what you have done, but, it is not conclusive.
Nobody has the research to challenge you which means you have won this debate.
But allow me to be a pest and bother you with this site. As time allows would you please review it and post a response ?
Stijlvol interieur in Scandinavisch design BGA.NL
Concerning Jericho:
QUOTE:
"As to the main fact, then, there remains no doubt: the walls fell outwards so completely that the attackers would be able to clamber up and over their ruins into the city." END QUOTE (John Garstang,Joshua/Judges [London: Constable, 1931]).
How many archaeological digs in the Middle East reveal walls caving inwards from the attack of invading armies ?
I don't understand. If this confirms the miracle of the walls of Jericho, then Ai is a matter of geographic identification other than et-Tell ?
thanks Brian,
WT

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Cold Foreign Object 
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Message 7 of 46 (112693)
06-03-2004 9:16 PM


Hi Brian !
The Bible generally places the Red Sea Exodus at around 1400-50 BC.
This is corroborated by the Pyramid, which dates the Exodus at precisely 1453 BC.
"Ages in Chaos"/Velikovsky dates the Exodus at circa 1445 BC.
Velikovsky used Egyptian accounts of the Exodus/plagues to date the Exodus.
Velikovsky was an agnostic Jew. His research as we know caused upheaval. I consider him extremely objective. OTOH, there are dripping with bias much respected archaeologists like Finkelstein whom I am sure you admire.
My point is that I have provided 2 corroborative sources confirming a circa 1450 BC Exodus.
NOBODY can change the fact that the Pyramid's descending passage and scored line extensions identify a beginning immutable benchmark date.
That descending passage extended out into space directly hits the Dragon Star/North Star.
The scored line extended out into space directly hits Alcyone. This only happened in 2141 BC.
From 2141BC to the point where the first ascending passage begins is 1453 BC. It cannot be changed or refuted. If you care to look at the evidence it is irrefuteable.
The symbolism of the interior passages and its message perfectly reflects the claims of the Bible, not to mention Isaiah 19:19, 20 and its numeric value equaling the height of the Pyramid.
Every scholar, including Dr. Scott, laughed at this evidence when they first heard about it, but every book written on the Pyramid was subsequently written by these same persons in favor of the claims.
There is no way around it - the Exodus happened in 1453 BC, which means the Conquest began in 1413 BC, which means the second wave of archaeologists are biased against the Bible and/or mistaken and/or wrong and/or lying.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 06-03-2004 08:22 PM

  
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Message 8 of 46 (112697)
06-03-2004 9:51 PM


On-topic Inquiry
Is a discussion of the date of Exodus on-topic for this thread? Maybe it is, I can't be sure. The discussion is too lengthy for me to read in detail in the time I have available right now, but Exodus wasn't mentioned in the introductory post, and it seemed to pop in out of the blue. Plus there is already a thread on the Exodus date over at PROOF OF GOD.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Cold Foreign Object 
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Message 9 of 46 (112698)
06-03-2004 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Admin
06-03-2004 9:51 PM


Re: On-topic Inquiry
You are correct, HOWEVER, IF the Exodus happened in 1453 BC THEN Brian's insistence/evidence of Joshua being fiction is incorrect. This is the relevance.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 06-03-2004 08:56 PM

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Message 10 of 46 (112701)
06-03-2004 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object
06-03-2004 9:55 PM


Re: On-topic Inquiry
But you just repeated the exact same text in Message 126. Please, no more Exodus dating discussion outside of PROOF OF GOD. Once you settle the issue in that thread, you can resume the discussion in other threads.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Cold Foreign Object 
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Message 11 of 46 (112702)
06-03-2004 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Admin
06-03-2004 10:06 PM


Re: On-topic Inquiry
Agreed.

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 12 of 46 (112751)
06-04-2004 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object
06-03-2004 9:55 PM


Re: On-topic Inquiry
HOWEVER, IF the Exodus happened in 1453 BC
Opening post: But it can be stated categorically that Jericho was unoccupied and ‘unwalled’ after c. 1560 BCE, until c 1200 BCE, therefore, Joshua’s conquest has to be prior to 1560 BCE.
Brian.

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4015 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 13 of 46 (114070)
06-10-2004 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Brian
06-04-2004 10:40 AM


Re: On-topic Inquiry
Forget Palestine. Didn`t Salibi find Jericho and Ai in Asir?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Brian, posted 06-04-2004 10:40 AM Brian has replied

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4015 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
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Message 14 of 46 (114072)
06-10-2004 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Nighttrain
06-10-2004 1:41 AM


Re: On-topic Inquiry
Damn. My smilie didn`t come up.

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 15 of 46 (114115)
06-10-2004 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Nighttrain
06-10-2004 1:41 AM


Re: On-topic Inquiry
Hi,
Didn`t Salibi find Jericho and Ai in Asir?
Salibi
Some people take Salibiesque material seriously around these here parts, you may have provided a few innocent christians with a new champion!!
Brian.

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